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Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

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Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#31

Post by seszett »

Nursie wrote: post #28
murbard2 wrote: post #27

I'm a native French speaker and fluent in English (and of course, as luck would have it, I'm going to stick grammar mistakes in this post) Some have pointed out that French is almost always longer. It's a bit more complicated than that. French uses a wider vocabulary than English, and uses many different words to convey different connotations. Words, as a result, tend to be longer, because they carry more information…

>> French uses a wider vocabulary than English This seems an extraordinary claim, given that English is generally considered to have the largest number of words of any modern language (mostly because we just steal them).

I believe that's the difference between "uses a wider vocabulary" and "has a wider vocabulary".

I would think that literary French generally uses a wider vocabulary than English though, at least because repeating words in French is to be avoided at all costs, while it's more acceptable in English.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#32

Post by zizee »

Nursie wrote: post #28
murbard2 wrote: post #27

I'm a native French speaker and fluent in English (and of course, as luck would have it, I'm going to stick grammar mistakes in this post) Some have pointed out that French is almost always longer. It's a bit more complicated than that. French uses a wider vocabulary than English, and uses many different words to convey different connotations. Words, as a result, tend to be longer, because they carry more information…

>> French uses a wider vocabulary than English This seems an extraordinary claim, given that English is generally considered to have the largest number of words of any modern language (mostly because we just steal them).

After a point, having more words in a dictionary does not necessarily result in the average person using more words in their communication. I would think that education/environment would have a bigger effect.

That said, I would interested if the grandparent could provide more info supporting their statement, as I don't know the truth one way or the other and would like to know more.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#33

Post by pothibo »

pash wrote: post #29
pothibo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is french easier to rhyme than english? Do you have empirical evidence? Since I'm a french canadian who is lucky enough to speak the two languages, I find it difficult to believe. Remember that rap (rhyme and poetry) was popularized by poor english speaking people.

For a discussion of the ease of rhyming in French versus English, see, e.g., this book [0]. Rhymes are widely considered to be easier to form in French; partly as a result, however, classical French poetry developed several additional stylistic constraints related to rhyming, such as the distinction between "feminine" and "masculine" rhymes of words with and without a final devoiced "e". I wonder what you would accep…

So basically you make a claim that french is easier to rhyme than english, then I ask you if you have any evidence and you retorqued with a condescending answer adding a link to a book you took 5 second to google and that you didn't read.

You didn't read it because I just read it and while the first sentence would make it appear to back your point, it doesn't. First because he doesn't compare french to english but merely explain how the main accent is put on the suffix of words and that, in turn, makes it easy in french to build rhyme.

And if you continue to the next page, he explains how french rhyme are not on the same level as their english counterpart "because most English rhymes involve the root rather than the inflectional ending or suffix [...]"

Bottom line, you are wrong, and you try to pass as knowledgeable. You are a fraud.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#34

Post by omonra »

Wouldn't analysis of top 3 contemporary newspapers / magazines in each language yield a more accurate result?

Ie if Dickens or Melville used certain words in their writing - if modern speakers don't know them, we can't really use them to gauge how many words English speakers use today.

I, for one, simply can't read Shakespeare - most of his vocabulary (anybody knows what a 'bodkin' is?) sounds foreign to me. And I scored 99 percentile on the verbal SAT.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#35

Post by pash »

Nursie wrote: post #28
murbard2 wrote: post #27

I'm a native French speaker and fluent in English (and of course, as luck would have it, I'm going to stick grammar mistakes in this post) Some have pointed out that French is almost always longer. It's a bit more complicated than that. French uses a wider vocabulary than English, and uses many different words to convey different connotations. Words, as a result, tend to be longer, because they carry more information…

>> French uses a wider vocabulary than English This seems an extraordinary claim, given that English is generally considered to have the largest number of words of any modern language (mostly because we just steal them).

Word-use is roughly Zipf-distributed [0] in most all modern languages, so there's not much difference in the number of commonly used words (as long as you ignore basic differences like the existence of articles and the richness of word inflection).

An analysis of English and French texts on Project Gutenburg shows that 93 words account for half of English usage, versus 89 for French [1]. English has fewer words in the middle of the distribution (696 versus 795 at 70%) and in the near tail (6,428 versus 9,050 at 90%, and 14,736 versus 21,231 at 95%), but more in the extreme tail.

0. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipf%27s_law

1. http://1.1o1.in/en/webtools/semantic-depth

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#36

Post by pcrh »

pash wrote: post #35
Nursie wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> French uses a wider vocabulary than English This seems an extraordinary claim, given that English is generally considered to have the largest number of words of any modern language (mostly because we just steal them).

Word-use is roughly Zipf-distributed [0] in most all modern languages, so there's not much difference in the number of commonly used words (as long as you ignore basic differences like the existence of articles and the richness of word inflection). An analysis of English and French texts on Project Gutenburg shows that 93 words account for half of English usage, versus 89 for French [1]. English has fewer words in th…

>50th percentile of word use at 93 words for English and 89 for French [1].

If I understand the meaning to that phrase correctly, it seems to be an extraordinarily useless measure

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#37

Post by murbard2 »

zizee wrote: post #32
Nursie wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> French uses a wider vocabulary than English This seems an extraordinary claim, given that English is generally considered to have the largest number of words of any modern language (mostly because we just steal them).

After a point, having more words in a dictionary does not necessarily result in the average person using more words in their communication. I would think that education/environment would have a bigger effect. That said, I would interested if the grandparent could provide more info supporting their statement, as I don't know the truth one way or the other and would like to know more.

This is mostly based on my own observations, I don't have a very specific study on the matter.

Here's a data point though. Many French students learn in English class, as an anecdote, that "shallow" has no equivalent in French. If there were many other words like this, there would be little point in relating this anecdote. "Shallow" is one of the very few words in English with no French equivalent. French words with no English equivalent? I encounter them all the time.

There are different words for the mouth and leg of an animal versus human. (gueule et patte vs bouche et jambe). There's a common word for the lump of flours that form in dough (grumeau). There's a word for a sandwich with a slice of bread on only one side (tartine). There's a single word for brown sugar (cassonade). There's a different word for hair on your head and hair on your body (cheveux, poils), etc.

Here's a nice list http://www.eupedia.com/europe/missing_words_english.shtml

English words with no French equivalent? Shallow and Serendipity come to mind. I'm googling but I can't find many other at the moment, apart from very technical terms.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#38

Post by pcrh »

omonra wrote: post #34

Wouldn't analysis of top 3 contemporary newspapers / magazines in each language yield a more accurate result? Ie if Dickens or Melville used certain words in their writing - if modern speakers don't know them, we can't really use them to gauge how many words English speakers use today . I, for one, simply can't read Shakespeare - most of his vocabulary (anybody knows what a 'bodkin' is?) sounds foreign to me. And I s…

Most of Shakespeare's language is accessible to English speakers in England, Ireland, Australia, etc. There might be a few word here or there that are not widely understood ("bodkin" is not one of these, its meaning is generally known in the UK).

However, American English, especially as is daily spoken in the more ethnically diverse areas of the US has a much reduced vocabulary due to the need to accommodate non-native speakers.

For an example of where Shakespeare's language become confusing consider

"Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo."

Modern speakers of English most often interpret "wherefore to mean "where", when it means "why".

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#39

Post by omonra »

pcrh wrote: post #38
omonra wrote: post #34

Wouldn't analysis of top 3 contemporary newspapers / magazines in each language yield a more accurate result? Ie if Dickens or Melville used certain words in their writing - if modern speakers don't know them, we can't really use them to gauge how many words English speakers use today . I, for one, simply can't read Shakespeare - most of his vocabulary (anybody knows what a 'bodkin' is?) sounds foreign to me. And I s…

Most of Shakespeare's language is accessible to English speakers in England, Ireland, Australia, etc. There might be a few word here or there that are not widely understood ("bodkin" is not one of these, its meaning is generally known in the UK). However, American English, especially as is daily spoken in the more ethnically diverse areas of the US has a much reduced vocabulary due to the need to accommodate non-nati…

Seriously? What % of the English do you think will understand this (random start of first Shakespeare play that popped into my head):

If music be the food of love, play on;

Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,

The appetite may sicken, and so die.

That strain again! it had a dying fall:

O, it came o'er my ear like the sweet sound,

That breathes upon a bank of violets,

Stealing and giving odour! Enough; no more:

'Tis not so sweet now as it was before.

O spirit of love! how quick and fresh art thou,

That, notwithstanding thy capacity

Receiveth as the sea, nought enters there,

Of what validity and pitch soe'er,

But falls into abatement and low price,

Even in a minute: so full of shapes is fancy

That it alone is high fantastical.

Re: Do the English Use More Words Than the French?

#40

Post by pcrh »

omonra wrote: post #39
pcrh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Shakespeare's language is accessible to English speakers in England, Ireland, Australia, etc. There might be a few word here or there that are not widely understood ("bodkin" is not one of these, its meaning is generally known in the UK). However, American English, especially as is daily spoken in the more ethnically diverse areas of the US has a much reduced vocabulary due to the need to accommodate non-nati…

Seriously? What % of the English do you think will understand this (random start of first Shakespeare play that popped into my head): If music be the food of love, play on; Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting, The appetite may sicken, and so die. That strain again! it had a dying fall: O, it came o'er my ear like the sweet sound, That breathes upon a bank of violets, Stealing and giving odour! Enough; no more: 'Ti…

Which words in that passage are not easily understandable? The most "obscure" one that I can identify is "notwithstanding" (Google gives 48,000,000 results for "notwithstanding", so it is not exactly an obscure word).

A failure to understand that passage is a failure of comprehension, not of vocabulary.

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