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Where Is Germany's Gold?

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31–40 of 91 posts

Re: Where Is Germany's Gold?

#31

Whenever I find myself in a conversation with a goldbug, and they complain about something like "the craziness of unbacked monetary systems" I say "I like your shirt. I will give you $500 for that shirt." (This assumes the shirt is clearly worth less than $500.) If they ask why I make such an offer, I ask if they would accept such an offer. If they suggest they would, then I ask why they would accept such an offer. I…

That is a good argument. However, I suspect that their is a subtler form of the gold bugs' argument that has more validity but they're not phrasing (or haven't even thought about): the $500 has real, serious value, but it doesn't clearly have $500 value.

What's the value of the shirt? That depends on a lot of things that aren't known to you, and might not be known to them: how long will it last? how versatile is it? what would it cost to find an equivalent shirt, or to resell it? etc. These things are also ambiguous at a clothing store, although less so. But what is clear to both you and the goldbug is that it's clearly and obviously worth much less than $500: you're willing to estimate a rough value, even though neither of you can't put an exact number on it.

The goldbug ought to be complaining that everyone looks at a five-hundred-dollar bill and thinks that it's clearly and obviously worth exactly $500.00. That is tied into a lot of things, including, like the shirt, how long it will last and what it can be exchanged for, and neither of you know these things for sure.

With our worldview and assumptions, you and I might conclude that the bill is definitely worth at least $495: the chance of government collapse or a run on the banks, even over the next several years, is much less than one percent, and we can expect to use the bill before inflation devalues it by one percent. The goldbug, with their worldview and assumptions, might conclude that the value is fuzzier and possibly as low as $400: maybe there's a 20% chance of a run on the banks in the next few years. That still makes it worth obviously more than the shirt.

So the goldbug shouldn't be arguing that the money is unbacked and valueless, and you're right that things (including bills) are worth what people think they're worth. The goldbug should be arguing that we as a culture are overvaluing the bill. (And normal people do make these calculations: ask anyone who travels frequently between two countries with different currencies whether they prefer to keep cash in one currency or the other. Even over such a small value, there's a good chance they'll have an opinion.)

Reading between the lines of this article, there's an argument to be made that the world's large banks are not 100% trustworthy, as we'd hope. Maybe they're 95% trustworthy, but we should be skeptical of the claim that they're "beyond reproach", and simple human error, let alone malice, can cause gold to be misaccounted. And if they're misaccounting mere bars of gold, what else are they misaccounting?

Re: Where Is Germany's Gold?

#32
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a dinosaur lives in the subways under Manhattan. I would be convinced otherwise only by a full audit of all subway tunnels conducted using a dinosaur scanner (which someone will need to invent). But seriously, there are lots of things that are hard to prove wrong, but that's hardly a good reason to believe them. In your case, what motive would the Fed have? Has an employee of the Fed (or any other central ban…

I have an anti-dinosaur stone I'm willing to sell for the right price, it's very effective. Notice there are no dinosaurs around the vicinity of my stone.

Is it made of....GOLD?

Re: Where Is Germany's Gold?

#33
post #3

So here's how this works. Gold bugs are big fans of buying gold. They have lots of gold. Their narrative of the financial system is that gold is the uber-asset that all other assets must be denominated in, and that fiat currency is doomed to collapse. The massive run-up of gold prices during the financial crisis played into this narrative, and despite the fact that mainstream economists, politicians, bankers, etc. st…

And we all know that "mainstream economists" are a good source for unbiased opinions.

Re: Where Is Germany's Gold?

#34

I thought all of the German gold was in the Philippines. Disclaimer: I'm currently reading Cryptonomicon. It's a history book, right?

Yes, but not of our universe.

Amazing book, by the way. I would also highly recommend the whole Baroque cycle.

Re: Where Is Germany's Gold?

#35
post #3

So here's how this works. Gold bugs are big fans of buying gold. They have lots of gold. Their narrative of the financial system is that gold is the uber-asset that all other assets must be denominated in, and that fiat currency is doomed to collapse. The massive run-up of gold prices during the financial crisis played into this narrative, and despite the fact that mainstream economists, politicians, bankers, etc. st…

And we all know that "mainstream economists" are a good source for unbiased opinions.

Sure. Just like "mainstream climate scientists", or "mainstream doctors", amirite?

Re: Where Is Germany's Gold?

#36
post #3

So here's how this works. Gold bugs are big fans of buying gold. They have lots of gold. Their narrative of the financial system is that gold is the uber-asset that all other assets must be denominated in, and that fiat currency is doomed to collapse. The massive run-up of gold prices during the financial crisis played into this narrative, and despite the fact that mainstream economists, politicians, bankers, etc. st…

> So now, gold prices have been weak for a few years, so they have to come up with a new narrative

Not sure about the narrative you describe, but it's a clear fact that it's harder and harder to buy gold anonymously, without declaring to the State where you stash it. Makes it practical the day they come to get it back and give you worthless paper instead.

Re: Where Is Germany's Gold?

#37
post #24

Whenever I find myself in a conversation with a goldbug, and they complain about something like "the craziness of unbacked monetary systems" I say "I like your shirt. I will give you $500 for that shirt." (This assumes the shirt is clearly worth less than $500.) If they ask why I make such an offer, I ask if they would accept such an offer. If they suggest they would, then I ask why they would accept such an offer. I…

I'm not a goldbug, but I'd answer to > So why would they take a fiction over a real shirt that that gives them real value? Because they can nearly immediately exchange the $500 (fiction) into something of real value (gold).

But that would then imply that the five-hundred-dollar bill has value, because it can be exchanged reliably and easily for value.

The goldbugs, as far as I know, don't favor gold because it's shiny; they favor it because it's physical and it's historically been popular in so many cultures as a medium of exchange for things of real, inherent value (food, labor, housing, etc.). I think a definition of "value" that roots gold as having value because it's gold would be so self-referential as to be useless.

Re: Where Is Germany's Gold?

#39

I don't see the benefit in having all of your country's gold reserves stored in your country? Firstly, there's the the invasion risk the article referenced, to which I'll add internal political division (talking generally, not just about Germany, although 1989 was not that long ago in geopolitical time). Having all of your gold in the central bank sounds to me like having all of your eggs in one basket, waiting to be…

The offsite copy involves trustworthy people, and unlike with data, there's no client-side encryption for gold.

If you do believe that the NY Fed, the Bank of England, and the Bank of France are "above reproach," then your argument is absolutely correct. But if you can't be sure of that—and this article is definitely attempting to cast doubt on that—then there's the usual argument about self-hosting. Amazon's probably a better sysadmin than most people are, but you're the only sysadmin that you have meaningful control over the competence of.

Re: Where Is Germany's Gold?

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or gold was in a bubble that collapsed. The Depression proves that the gold standard doesn't work. There was no stability; there was deflation. Since the concept behind the gold standard means "gold always..." - a universal quantifier, one needs only show a counterexample to blow it out of the water.

Agreed that deflation is terrible. I hate paying lower prices for goods and services. Thankfully we have central banks to fight the scourge of lower prices.

I, on the other hand, love lower wages, higher real debts, and problems with planning.
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