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First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

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Re: First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

#31

Post by coldtea »

CmonDev wrote: post #20
coldtea wrote: post #4

If only the open source languages we use had that many resources and paid developers... (Well, technically C# and the related libs are fully OSS now too, IIRC).

What's the matter? Open-source did not turn out to be such a silver bullet?

Did I say anywhere that I'm a proponent of Open Source?

I just said, "if only open source languages had the same resources".

Because that's what I mostly get to use, and because I don't run Windows but OS X, so I don't get to play with a fully supported C# environment.

Re: First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

#32

Post by mike_hearn »

x0x0 wrote: post #8

As a java programmer, who is involved in some large projects that can't be ported, I'm really jealous. And eagerly waiting to see how well the .net core runtime targets linux and mac. Good, no copy interop with native code would also be awesome. Particularly for machine learning.

The Java world moves on too, you know. A lot of the features that are listed as things that would be nice to have in C# already exist in Kotlin, which has been created by JetBrains to be fully drop-in compatible with Java. To the extent that it has a hotkey that automatically rewrites a Java class into Kotlin, and the entire project keeps compiling and working (they have full/close to perfect interop).

For example, Kotlin has:

• Nullability in the type system

• Good support for efficient functional programming, e.g. you can do collection.map { it * 2 } and it's as fast as an imperative for loop as the compiler inlines the block.

• Strong support for meta-programming / DSL features, so there's less need to make code generators. JetBrains are still working on this but basically the language has a lot of features that don't initially seem all that significant, but can be combined to create useful DSLs.

• Lightweight data classes that support immutability and editing via copy construction (using named arguments)

• Traits

• Delegation

• etc etc

... and it's all here today, with good IDE support, and compatible with Java 6 even.

For good native interop there is JNA and there's a research project over at Oracle looking at how to do something better than JNA directly integrated with the JVM in a future version. So don't be too jealous.

Re: First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

#33

Post by pjmlp »

MichaelGG wrote: post #25
tejinderss wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK F# is the first class VS citizen since VS 2010. They have a small yet good team working on it. What do you think is missing support in VS for f#?

In general, overall tooling is not at the same level. Code gen is focused on a C#-like model, designers aren't there, debugging isn't the same (immediate window, for instance). Last i checked (which was a while ago), VS testing didn't work with F#. Even Intellisense is not as complete. I'm happy with F#, very happy indeed. But it lacks the resources that C# gets thrown at it. And it suffers from MS not having the hon…

> Instead, we get lines like "F# is for scientific computing" or similar spin.

You will never sell the typical VB.NET/C# enterprise .NET developer into F#.

I find very commendable what Microsot has done so far, even if it feels too little.

It rises the visibility of the language, specially to managers and drives CLR design decisions that help FP implementations, like TCO.

Let me know when Oracle gives at very least the same level of support to Scala in Netbeans and JVM design.

Re: First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

#34

Post by pjmlp »

mhomde wrote: post #26

I've been trying to think of something that drastically change how I coded. Bugs and productivity really are the two major dragons to slay. I'm just spitballing here but something I'd really like to see stuff like code contracts and unit testing, but more integrated with the language, less verbose and requiring less to setup. Being able to let the "meat" of a method be separated from all the error-checking, post, pre…

You kind of used D's syntax for contracts,

http://dlang.org/contracts.html

Re: First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

#35

Post by pjmlp »

mike_hearn wrote: post #32
x0x0 wrote: post #8

As a java programmer, who is involved in some large projects that can't be ported, I'm really jealous. And eagerly waiting to see how well the .net core runtime targets linux and mac. Good, no copy interop with native code would also be awesome. Particularly for machine learning.

The Java world moves on too, you know. A lot of the features that are listed as things that would be nice to have in C# already exist in Kotlin, which has been created by JetBrains to be fully drop-in compatible with Java. To the extent that it has a hotkey that automatically rewrites a Java class into Kotlin, and the entire project keeps compiling and working (they have full/close to perfect interop). For example, K…

There is a big difference between being the platform's system programming language and a third party language.

Specially in the eyes of managers.

Re: First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

#36

Post by jarcane »

MichaelGG wrote: post #25
tejinderss wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK F# is the first class VS citizen since VS 2010. They have a small yet good team working on it. What do you think is missing support in VS for f#?

In general, overall tooling is not at the same level. Code gen is focused on a C#-like model, designers aren't there, debugging isn't the same (immediate window, for instance). Last i checked (which was a while ago), VS testing didn't work with F#. Even Intellisense is not as complete. I'm happy with F#, very happy indeed. But it lacks the resources that C# gets thrown at it. And it suffers from MS not having the hon…

This is something that does rub my the wrong way a bit as well. F# is a fantastic language, easily my favorite non-Lisp FP language, and possibly period, but it was very clearly second-class in the field of actually building full apps with it. MS just flat does not seem to believe that anyone would want to build full apps with F#, so support for doing so is a bit of a wild frontier.

Hopefully with F# in open source hands now this can continue to improve. In the meantime, I'm studying up on C# and .NET, so that I hopefully have at least the bare minimum familiarity to work around these limitations.

Re: First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

#37

Post by mhomde »

pjmlp wrote: post #34
mhomde wrote: post #26

I've been trying to think of something that drastically change how I coded. Bugs and productivity really are the two major dragons to slay. I'm just spitballing here but something I'd really like to see stuff like code contracts and unit testing, but more integrated with the language, less verbose and requiring less to setup. Being able to let the "meat" of a method be separated from all the error-checking, post, pre…

You kind of used D's syntax for contracts, http://dlang.org/contracts.html

cool, thanks!

Multiple bracket blocks is not the most esthetic of solutions I think but it's the best I can think of. Attributes feels too clunky and just stacking contracts as lines after the class statement feels too disorganized

Re: First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

#38

Post by arethuza »

mhomde wrote: post #26

I've been trying to think of something that drastically change how I coded. Bugs and productivity really are the two major dragons to slay. I'm just spitballing here but something I'd really like to see stuff like code contracts and unit testing, but more integrated with the language, less verbose and requiring less to setup. Being able to let the "meat" of a method be separated from all the error-checking, post, pre…

Would be easy to add something like that in CLOS using :before and :after methods and maybe some macros to give suitable syntax.

Re: First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

#39

Post by reubenbond »

Rapzid wrote: post #9

I would LOVE for C# to get language support for go style channels complete with select and friends. C# already has the fantastic Task stuff, and while they aren't as cheap as go's go-routines they work very well. Channels would just ice the cake so well. :D~~~ And while I'm at it. I did some testing recently and realized that manually currying in a for loop is faster than using function composition with delegates by…

Look into Microsoft's Task Parallel Library, it's fantastic! It gives you something similar to channels.

I wish more people knew about it. As someone else mentioned, Reactive Extensions are also great - I believe they will be getting backpressure support which will allow similar semantics to channels (but with first-class error handling)

Re: First C# 7 Design Meeting Notes

#40

Post by dodyg »

mike_hearn wrote: post #32
x0x0 wrote: post #8

As a java programmer, who is involved in some large projects that can't be ported, I'm really jealous. And eagerly waiting to see how well the .net core runtime targets linux and mac. Good, no copy interop with native code would also be awesome. Particularly for machine learning.

The Java world moves on too, you know. A lot of the features that are listed as things that would be nice to have in C# already exist in Kotlin, which has been created by JetBrains to be fully drop-in compatible with Java. To the extent that it has a hotkey that automatically rewrites a Java class into Kotlin, and the entire project keeps compiling and working (they have full/close to perfect interop). For example, K…

I wish they kept the Pattern Matching support.
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