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U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#31

Post by ryan-allen »

treelovinhippie wrote: post #15

It's happening in Australia too. I spoke to a CEO of a company here a few years ago which provides software and services to the government and RTA/RMS. There are cameras setup under overpasses which automatically take photos of each individual car and it's passengers. In this particular incident their company was tasked with processing all of those photos to identify/track a guy who had murdered his wife and was on t…

Which murder case was this in particular? Do you have a link to the news article?

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#32

Post by DanielBMarkham »

jsprogrammer wrote: post #24
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #13

So the mailman remembers everyone you've ever sent or received mail with. The DOJ remembers every time your car pulls in front of a police vehicle with a LPR. The NSA is tracking what people you call, when, how long, and where you are when you call them. For the life of me I do not understand why both major parties aren't having conniption fits right now. Are these the same parties that, on a bipartisan basis, told N…

The "problem" is that it is increasingly easy to assemble these databases and to update them in real time. If a government agency isn't doing it, a corporation could be (and some are, for certain pieces of data), and soon (if not now) an individual or loose collection of individuals could achieve nearly the same results. We might need to embrace it, make everything transparent and collaborative, and figure out how to…

Thank you. Just to clarify, even though I'm a libertarian, this isn't a "Big Gummit" problem. If DOJ wasn't doing this, Yellow Cab would. Or Uber. Or the guys who build traffic lights. The data is simply too valuable to ignore.

This is a tech problem. We created this, all while saying something like "Yeah, but all that ethical and philosophy stuff isn't really anything I need to worry about. What I need are eyeballs"

The government takes the blame in many cases because they hold all the trump cards -- they can take the data from anybody that's collecting it. They can also send you to jail, which commercial providers cannot directly do (yet). But the problem is with the tech. We have met the enemy and he is us.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#33

Post by stegosaurus »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #28
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #18

I've been mulling ideas to defeat ANPR without breaking state laws. The simplest may be to use a tilted/warped surrounding frame that interferes with the skew correction of the captured plate. Another thought is to project bright infrared patterns to disrupt unfiltered B&W cameras.

Another way is travel by other means, eg taxi, bus, subway, train, bike, etc.

UK perspective again, though may be useful for a possible glimpse into the future:

In London, cash is no longer accepted on the bus. Same deal for subways. The smart card (Oyster) is purchasable without ID but not disposable without showing ID and a deposit is charged. Paper travelcards are available at much higher cost per journey.

Smaller towns have cash bus tickets :)

Taxi may be viable but it's a matter of chaffing; are you hailing, or calling a private hire company/using Uber? The former is far more expensive here and also not really viable in many cities.

The train is also drastically more expensive unless you buy advance tickets online (on the day tickets can be obscene, hundreds of pounds for a 200 mile journey).

Bicycle is viable, for now.

Basically, most methods are trackable, there just might be levels of indirection. Buying a ticket online or using a bank card is just an algorithm away from entering the 'log where you are' zone.

But then, we're all carrying cellphones right? :D

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#34

Post by girvo »

ihsw wrote: post #4

> The law-enforcement scanners are different from those used to collect tolls. Much to the chagrin of our rent-seeking overlords, whom see speed traps and red-light cameras as a means of revenue generation rather than safety measure.

Speed traps I'll grant you, but how are red light cameras not a safety measure?

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#35

Post by kxo »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #17

I always found it much more interesting to consider that smart stop light sensors could read the RFID tags that are required for tires [1]. You can change your plates but how often do you change your tires? [1] http://www.rfidjournal.com/articles/view?10880

TPMS sensors or RFID tags?

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#36

Post by robotkilla »

ryan-allen wrote: post #30
ChuckMcM wrote: post #17

I always found it much more interesting to consider that smart stop light sensors could read the RFID tags that are required for tires [1]. You can change your plates but how often do you change your tires? [1] http://www.rfidjournal.com/articles/view?10880

Tyres have RFID tags in them??! What an unusual thing to put RFID tags in. I wonder what other common items could have tags in them that people are generally unaware of. I'm quite in to cars and I had NO IDEA this was a thing.

I was also unaware of this. That said, RFID chips are used for inventory systems. The inclusion in a tire is most likely innocuous and doesn't seem that unusual to me.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#37

Post by josaka »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #18

I've been mulling ideas to defeat ANPR without breaking state laws. The simplest may be to use a tilted/warped surrounding frame that interferes with the skew correction of the captured plate. Another thought is to project bright infrared patterns to disrupt unfiltered B&W cameras.

Custom plates: 8BB8 8BB8.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#38

Post by adrr »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #18

I've been mulling ideas to defeat ANPR without breaking state laws. The simplest may be to use a tilted/warped surrounding frame that interferes with the skew correction of the captured plate. Another thought is to project bright infrared patterns to disrupt unfiltered B&W cameras.

Probably could use the same technologies used to defeat lidar speed enforcement. Active jamming with high powered IR emitting LEDs or covering the plate with an IR absorbing lacquer or film.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#39

Post by robotkilla »

girvo wrote: post #34
ihsw wrote: post #4

> The law-enforcement scanners are different from those used to collect tolls. Much to the chagrin of our rent-seeking overlords, whom see speed traps and red-light cameras as a means of revenue generation rather than safety measure.

Speed traps I'll grant you, but how are red light cameras not a safety measure?

Safety measure or not, red light cameras are a joke. Chicago's red light cam program is a failure.

Edit: I have to agree with the other commenter though - red light cams were meant to bring in revenue to the city of Chicago. They bought into the program by outsourcing to a third party company (big shock, most of chicago looks like the poster child for a corporation owned city). They're not making the money they expected on the deal though.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#40

Post by Zombieball »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #17

I always found it much more interesting to consider that smart stop light sensors could read the RFID tags that are required for tires [1]. You can change your plates but how often do you change your tires? [1] http://www.rfidjournal.com/articles/view?10880

Doesn't that average consumer change their tires more frequently than their license plate over the lifespan of their car?

I ask as your question seemed a bit strange to me.

I am not sure if you are alluding to the fact that individuals trying to evade the law wouldn't know to change their tires, or if car licensing & insurance is much different than I imagined in the US (and individuals get a new license plate each year or something crazy).

Edit: also thanks for the link! I really had no idea RFID was hidden in tires! Makes me wonder what else they are hidden in...

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