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A woman who can't feel fear

washingtonpost.com

31–40 of 44 posts

Re: A woman who can't feel fear

#31

I wonder whether she has done truly awesome things with her life. One of these pieces of advice you hear often regarding your true vocation goes something like _what would you do if you had no fear?_. Well, she literally hasn't. So is she an Olympic champion who fights crime during the night and writes amazing novels during the day and commutes to work swimming together with a school of piranhas, or has she led a rel…

Gabriel, I'm delighted to read this comment by you (and that of David Warren) as you folks get this article in a positive light. Look at others bringing in sociopathy and "real dangers".

Re: A woman who can't feel fear

#32

What would stop a person like this from killing herself if she is truly depressed ? What stops her from killing herself out of curiosity ? Would she make a better or worse soldier ? I wish this woman did an AMA.

I wonder if you can be truly depressed if you don't fear anything? Or does her lack of fear not encompass anxiety?

Great questions.

> I wonder if you can be truly depressed if you don't fear anything?

In the podcast, she does describe herself to be happy 9 out of 10 times.

> Or does her lack of fear not encompass anxiety?

I asked someone who had met her in person a similar question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8927905

Re: A woman who can't feel fear

#33

What would stop a person like this from killing herself if she is truly depressed ? What stops her from killing herself out of curiosity ? Would she make a better or worse soldier ? I wish this woman did an AMA.

I wonder if you can be truly depressed if you don't fear anything? Or does her lack of fear not encompass anxiety?

>I wonder if you can be truly depressed if you don't fear anything?

I would say yes, often times depression manifests itself not as a feeling of fear or dread but as apathy. See for example Hugh Laurie's personal life [1,2] or Nine Inch Nails' Everyday is Exactly the Same[3] which captures that exact feeling. Or of course the wonderful Hyperbole and a Half's account of depression[4], especially the second part makes the point that depression at its worst is a void. No positive feelings, but also no negative ones.

Now I made myself sad^H^H^H apathetic going through those sources. Why does Trent Reznor have to be so good at projecting?

As for the anxiety bit (anxiety and depression are to completely different things), the article mentions her response to having her blood-co2 levels elevated, which seems to me to be a standard anxiety response. A feeling of restlessness and dread.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Laurie#Personal_Life [2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2316880/Playing... (I know, I know, Daily mail but the quotes are worth it) [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Aj9_8t1eQc [4] http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.nl/2011/10/adventures-in-d...

Re: A woman who can't feel fear

#35
post #7

This reminds me of discussions of pain asymbolia or not being able to feel pain (diabetes, leprosy): it's a crippling and dangerous problem. Fear, pain, guilty - the gifts no one appreciates.

By lumping them all together, you are implying that fear is a gift. The NPR podcast on the other hand suggests otherwise. SM describes herself to be happy 9 out of 10 times, and she has no past trauma. Sounds like being fearless is in fact the under-appreciated gift.

She describes herself as happy... and yet somehow has been at gunpoint and knifepoint, both of them multiple times. Most people manage to never have either. This suggests such people have extremely high death rates, and she's just lucky enough to still be around to be studied & interviewed.

I don't mind feeling fear occasionally if it helps me live out my natural lifespan.

Re: A woman who can't feel fear

#36
Seems like after every popular science radio show / podcast, a raft of 'articles' appear that are just cribbed summaries of the show.

Either there's just not enough material out there, or writers are very lazy, or these are essentially promos for the original show. In any case, if you consume science journalism with any appetite, this is pretty frustrating.

How about writing a new story, people?!

Re: A woman who can't feel fear

#37
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By lumping them all together, you are implying that fear is a gift. The NPR podcast on the other hand suggests otherwise. SM describes herself to be happy 9 out of 10 times, and she has no past trauma. Sounds like being fearless is in fact the under-appreciated gift.

She describes herself as happy... and yet somehow has been at gunpoint and knifepoint, both of them multiple times. Most people manage to never have either. This suggests such people have extremely high death rates, and she's just lucky enough to still be around to be studied & interviewed. I don't mind feeling fear occasionally if it helps me live out my natural lifespan.

> She describes herself as happy... and yet somehow has been at gunpoint and knifepoint, both of them multiple times. Most people manage to never have either. This suggests such people have extremely high death rates, and she's just lucky enough to still be around to be studied & interviewed.

Could you elaborate on what you are getting at here? Who are these other people, who are likewise fearless (like SM), that are not around to be studied & interviewed? I'm asking if there is an evidenced based count, or if you are purely speculating. Say, if there are 19 other people like SM with no fear, and all 19 of them of died due their frisky disregard for some 'risky behaviour' or 'real danger' ... then, I would accept that fear is indeed a gift.

> I don't mind feeling fear occasionally if it helps me live out my natural lifespan.

It is not just about the initial feeling of fear -- even then I hardly think fear helps a modern human live out his natural lifespan, as intelligence does a much better job of it -- but also the lack of fear-induced complex emotions, such as separation anxiety. Also it helps to remember that stress (much of it based on fear) shorten the said lifespan tremendously. So you may very well be looking at negligible loss vs substantial profit.

It seems to me that SM is the first candidate to demonstrate that fear can be disregarded like an appendage in modern times. All that these scientists could come up with over the years to justify their (and the general public's) fear of lack of fear is those four incidents of being held at knifepoint and gunpoint.

Re: A woman who can't feel fear

#38
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She describes herself as happy... and yet somehow has been at gunpoint and knifepoint, both of them multiple times. Most people manage to never have either. This suggests such people have extremely high death rates, and she's just lucky enough to still be around to be studied & interviewed. I don't mind feeling fear occasionally if it helps me live out my natural lifespan.

> She describes herself as happy... and yet somehow has been at gunpoint and knifepoint, both of them multiple times. Most people manage to never have either. This suggests such people have extremely high death rates, and she's just lucky enough to still be around to be studied & interviewed. Could you elaborate on what you are getting at here? Who are these other people, who are likewise fearless (like SM), that are…

> Who are these other people, who are likewise fearless (like SM), that are not around to be studied & interviewed?

People who were not survivors of 4 (and counting) violent assaults with deadly weapons, or of other dangerous behavior which might have not have happened if they had functioning fear.

> I'm asking if there is an evidenced based count, or if you are purely speculating.

I think the burden of proof here should be on anyone who thinks that lacking fear is great. If so, why does the rare disorder not spread? Why is fear an almost universal and evolutionarily-conserved emotion? Why does the only cited example lead an extraordinarily risky life? (How many white female artists ever get held up like that? Or 4 times? Hell of a coincidence...)

> All that these scientists could come up with over the years to justify their (and the general public's) fear of lack of fear is those four incidents of being held at knifepoint and gunpoint.

'All'?

Re: A woman who can't feel fear

#39
post #27
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you miss the point. She describes herself to be happy 9 out of 10 times because she is also unable to notice the real dangers that fear is there to help us handle. While it may be great to not feel afraid, as the article points out it also leads her to risky behaviour that most healthy persons would avoid.

That's because most healthy people are wrong. There are no risks or dangers worth fearing.

If you want to stay alive that is blatantly false.

Re: A woman who can't feel fear

#40

I've had the privilege of working with the patient described in the podcast. She's unique in any sense of the word.

Excellent! Could you say something about her emotional life? In the podcast, she described herself to be happy 9 out of 10 times. I wonder if she experiences love. And if she does, does she also experience grief? What about fear-based emotions (such as separation anxiety)?

First, I should point out the original work of Ralph Adolphs, the Damasios, and Dan Tranel on this case [0]. It's a short, important paper that started this whole line of investigation based on the single extraordinary case of SM.

In my interactions with her, SM was uniformly happy, and it's my impression that she's like that in everyday life as well. A former labmate, Justin Feinstein, wrote an interesting paper based in part on observing her in real-world settings [1]. He didn't observe fear in any of a variety of potentially frightening contexts — she generally confronts such contexts with laughter or wonder.

Regarding love, she's deeply attached to her family. I distinctly remember stopping when we walked past the hospital chapel so that she could pray for members of her family. I can't say as much about grief, but she never seemed anxious in any of the time that we spent together, and she certainly never got angry or even upset.

[0]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7990957

[1]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21167712

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