New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle • Hacker News Board

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#31

Post by sroerick » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

Do you believe that NSA should be conducting economic espionage?

There is a clear need for defense. But because of lack of oversight, NSA has overstepped its bounds in both foreign and domestic spheres.

The other side of this argument, one made cogently by Snowden, is that we simply have more to lose by escalating the cyberwar.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#32

Post by tlear » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 9:53 PM UTC

username wrote: post #27

tlear wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not. This stuff gives argument that Snowden went over to FSB long time ago and that the whole thing is a Russian op a lot more weight.

No, it doesn't. Snowden isn't the one who's been releasing these documents; the journalists are. For your claim to make any sense, you'd have to believe Der Spiegel is secretly working for the Russians.

They can disclose it because they were given it. Do you think he did not know this will get published sooner or later?

Also depth of Russian penetration of security services and media in Europe.. in many places it is quite complete. It would not actually be surprising at all if Spiegel had someone working for FSB/GRU.

Having said that it is not 100% certainty. If he was not turned before the disclosures then US whistleblower witchhunt that drove him into arms of FSB is even worse because he really had no choice once US started hunting him.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#33

Post by sroerick » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 9:54 PM UTC

pa7ch wrote: post #30

Looking at the comments in support of the NSA here makes me suspect an astroturfing campaign is happening. Edit: I should add that my suspicion came from noticing that the vast majority of the comments when this was first posted seemed aligned in favor of the NSA's mission. It wasn't the presence of pro-NSA comments that was interesting but rather that these opinions were the overwhelming majority. This is, of course…

Hacker News is quite astroturfed. Every web forum is.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#34

Post by hobs » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 9:54 PM UTC

tlear wrote: post #23

tosser002 wrote: post #19

I can understand the support of Snowden for blowing the whistle on domestic spying, but how is this defensible?

It does not. This stuff gives argument that Snowden went over to FSB long time ago and that the whole thing is a Russian op a lot more weight.

Did Snowden go to his superiors about the program? Did anyone care? If the Russians wanted to steal our information why not just steal the information? They have many of the secrets Snowden talked about already (via their own intelligence agencies, Russia is no slouch) and could publicize them if they wanted to, or release them anonymously and pretend it was some hackers on steroids.

It just doesnt hang together that Snowden is a spy for me, whether or not you approve of what he did.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#35

Post by askmike » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 9:54 PM UTC

benstein wrote: post #10

How is this whistleblowing? What benefit do we as the public gain from this knowledge?

The NSA behaves very hostile against everyone not from the US. As an EU resident I think it is very important to have an idea on the lines the NSA is crossing to protect US citizens that might put me at risk.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#36

Post by krapp » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 9:55 PM UTC

pa7ch wrote: post #30

Looking at the comments in support of the NSA here makes me suspect an astroturfing campaign is happening. Edit: I should add that my suspicion came from noticing that the vast majority of the comments when this was first posted seemed aligned in favor of the NSA's mission. It wasn't the presence of pro-NSA comments that was interesting but rather that these opinions were the overwhelming majority. This is, of course…

You're probably right.

No need to consider the arguments made by people who don't agree entirely with a particular point of view, or even discuss it at all. They're obviously just shills.

Edit: Much of the 'pro NSA' comments I see here seem merely to suggest that not everything the NSA does is evil, and not every disclosure is necessarily useful. As often happens in threads like these, any such comments are dismissed as the work of astroturfing or shills.

To imply that disagreement with any narrative presented by the Guardian and Spiegel Online must make one an agent with ulterior motives, is precisely the kind of propagandist trolling any forum which cares about truth should avoid.

Yes, the NSA has a covert program to attempt to influence online messageboard and social media accounts. No, this program does not account for every even remotely 'pro-NSA' opinion one might find online. And even if it did, judge them on their own merits and move on, because you really can't tell. It's all just text in a box.

Seeing spooks everywhere doesn't make you free, it just makes you paranoid.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#37

Post by EpicEng » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 9:55 PM UTC

moe wrote: post #21

benstein wrote: post #10

How is this whistleblowing? What benefit do we as the public gain from this knowledge?

I would ask the other way round. Why should this knowledge be hidden from the public?

The obvious answer is that it becomes much harder for the NSA (and related entities) to do their job when their tactics and capabilities are known to the world. And yes, this is their job, and there's nothing wrong with it. Domestic spying is something that needs to be reigned in and tightly controlled, but to think that everyone should know everything is just naive and shows little understanding of how the real world actually operates.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#38

Post by koepked » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 9:56 PM UTC

fidotron wrote: post #16

To be fair here, the NSA should very well be doing these things, for the purpose of attacking other states. The reason is very clear as the Russian attacks on Estonia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyberattacks_on_Estonia ) demonstrate a clear need for defensive capability in this area, and where you have defence you end up needing offence. This persistent confusion between legitimate NSA operations such as pre…

To me this goes both ways. If there is a legitimate mission for the NSA to accomplish, then perhaps they should make sure at all times to act in a way that is deserving of the public's trust. The persistent confusion you mention is not the fault of the confused.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#39

Post by username » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

moe wrote: post #21

benstein wrote: post #10

How is this whistleblowing? What benefit do we as the public gain from this knowledge?

I would ask the other way round. Why should this knowledge be hidden from the public?

I agree. I don't believe this report includes anything that could pose a legitimate threat to national security. If the NSA has begun militarizing the internet, the public has a right to know.

Re: New Snowden Docs Indicate Scope of NSA Preparations for Cyber Battle

#40

Post by tlear » Sat, Jan 17, 2015, 10:01 PM UTC

hobs wrote: post #34

tlear wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not. This stuff gives argument that Snowden went over to FSB long time ago and that the whole thing is a Russian op a lot more weight.

Did Snowden go to his superiors about the program? Did anyone care? If the Russians wanted to steal our information why not just steal the information? They have many of the secrets Snowden talked about already (via their own intelligence agencies, Russia is no slouch) and could publicize them if they wanted to, or release them anonymously and pretend it was some hackers on steroids. It just doesnt hang together that…

Mostly because Snowden and his image and how it was done make the whole thing much more believable and has more impact in US and Europe then random anon disclosures.

Who knows what his motivations are, they very well maybe noble. Enemy of my enemy is my friend kinda thing.. and when you face US gov power you need powerful friends. He saw what happened to other whistleblowers.

In the end whatever the story is I think he did a great thing for the republic in the long term.