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What Do We Want, Really?

thefrailestthing.com

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Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#31

Post by moultano »

shutupalready wrote: post #7

We need to be thankful that pockets of extreme nonconformity exist to show an alternative to groupthink. People are so eager to mock or crush any diversity. Average people can't stand the idea that there are places in the world with extreme differences like (a) much higher or lower tax (using the U.S. as reference point), (b) drug attitudes far softer or much worse, (c) political structures (even the "evil" ones, spe…

For me that's the most frustrating thing about the Westernization of the world. Your own culture is always invisible to you. You can only see it in contrast to something else. If everything becomes the same, then we lose the ability to even see those things, let alone think about them.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#32

Post by grondilu »

I've recently watched a video titled "on the purpose of Life"[1], from YouTuber Robert Murray-Smith, who usually posts videos about tech and science, mostly graphene-related stuff.

He makes a nice point that trying to assign a purpose to everything we do, and to Life itself, may be a mistake. He takes animal behavior as a comparison. Animals usually don't act in order to achieve a high-level goal. They do things because that's what they are built to do. Most of their actions are consequences of basic impulses, emotions and instincts. Now I understand we are highly sophisticated mammals with big brains, and as such we are capable of acting on a rational basis towards an abstract notion of a goal often simplistically called "happiness", for instance. Yet we are still very much animals, so it may be very wrong to think all our actions should be based on this mode of behavior. If we do we may face the absence of a definitive answer to our quest for purpose, which would explain our tendency to jump into goals made up by religion, or into philosophical wanderings which can sometimes be quite unsettling.

1. https://youtube.com/watch?v=xc7kM0mSVfw

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#34

Post by MichaelGG »

gumby wrote: post #27
avz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that the Amish approach starts with prejudice and outright rejection and leaves no scope for experimentation and trial dry runs of new tech. The author of the article urges reflection, but completely misses the importance of experimentation.

> It seems to me that the Amish approach starts with prejudice and outright rejection This statement seems extraordinary and contrary to their practice. They simply see everything through the lens of their extremist faith. I think they are nuts but I respect their approach. For example, they often do have telephones. Many villages have one phone in a phone booth in the middle of the town. So everyone can see you use…

They let their teens, with no education or real introduction, jump into all sorts of problems. Then they threaten complete shunning from the community, totally cutting them off from everyone they know.

How is it surprising people end up coming back under those conditions? If your first and only introduction to the Internet was just 4chan/b/, you might conclude the whole place is just for cp, gore, and other nonsense.

The Amish approach is harmful, unfair, essentiality wicked, to force children into such things. Unfortunately, I'm unaware of a principled alternative.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#35

Post by crimsonalucard »

What a person, or any person wants is never a singular objective. Our motivations are complex our ideals are vague, is it really so surprising that we all own televisions and at the same time think it's bad for us? As humans we are conflicted and irrational by nature

We tend to only pretentiously believe these things only for other people and never ourselves. It's this attitude of "Oh I know exactly what I want, but yeah I get how other people can get conflicted." I think what makes this article seem so intriguing is the fact that the author starts it off by throwing this irrationality into our face with something we all are conflicted about: television.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#36

Post by calebm »

Wonderful post. It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes by Blaise Pascal:

"All men seek happiness. This is without exception. Whatever different means they employ, they all tend to this end. The cause of some going to war, and of others avoiding it, is the same desire in both, attended with different views. The will never takes the least step but to this object. This is the motive of every action of every man, even of those who hang themselves."

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#37

Post by fizx »

rdtsc wrote: post #24
cfallin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then, of course, run compressed air (or vacuuum?) lines through their house. This is fascinating to me and I respect the dedication to principles that it demonstrates, independent of any logical arguments one could apply. I'm curious, where does the energy for the compressed air come from -- surely there's not an electric compressor out back? I had always understood the Amish philosophy re: electricity as an explic…

> surely there's not an electric compressor out back? There is a diesel generator powering a compressor. I believe (anyone please correct me here), this has started as a need to keep the milk (one of the top products sold by the Amish) cool. It was one of the government requirements for them to be able to sell it legally. So they basically desided that running a diesel generator powering a compressor somehow worked o…

I think that's actually a ceiling fan "swamp cooler." Clever!

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#39

Post by ars »

avz wrote: post #20
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Amish do use modern medicine. At least some of them. It depends on the community.

How do they reconcile it with the Ordnung's prohibition on the use of mains electricity? Almost all modern diagnostic, surgical and other medical equipment requires it.

They have no problem with other people using it, and they have no problem with renting such services.

They just don't want to own it, or make the access too convenient. So they might have a telephone - but it's at the end of a 10 minute walkway.

PS. How do you know the term Ordnung, but not know the basics of their belief about technology?

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#40

Post by ars »

jostmey wrote: post #3

I like the article and and the point that it makes using the Amish people as an example. But the Amish did not make a conscious decision to refrain from watching TV. No, the Amish shied away from electricity because of a religious belief that was in place before Television even existed. It is also worth noting that the Amish do not believe in education past 8th grade, and yet everyone would raise their hands if they…

> But the Amish did not make a conscious decision to refrain from watching TV. No, the Amish shied away from electricity because of a religious belief that was in place before Television even existed.

That is not correct.

They evaluate all technology based on the impact it will have to their family life. They don't have a religious belief against electricity.

They believe electricity would be harmful to the social fabric of their life. And they are probably right.

TV - even if not based on grid electricity (solar power for example) would certainly harm their social fabric.

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