Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat • Hacker News Board

Re: Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat

#31

Post by learc83 » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 1:33 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #15

maxlybbert wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what DB2 was. It's my understanding that every country in the world wants to know the criminal history of anyone asking for a visa for any reason (the host country may ignore that history, if it believes the crimes were politically motivated). And it's my understanding that INTERPOL allows countries to get at least some criminal records information. And there is clearly some system in place for countri…

> It's my understanding that every country in the world wants to know the criminal history of anyone asking for a visa for any reason I'm actually fine with that. And if I ever apply for a visa, I gladly sign a waiver allowing the respective country to request the data from my country. But I am not fine with any government in the world being able to research my criminal record without authorization! Push, not pull. >…

>But I am not fine with any government in the world being able to research my criminal record without authorization!

Criminal records are a matter of public record in most countries (including the US). That means that anyone can search your criminal history, not just governments.

There may not always be a central database, but the information is out there.

Re: Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat

#32

Post by elwin » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 1:39 AM UTC

blackbagboys wrote: post #30

elwin wrote: post #3

The article shows an interesting illustration of the disconnect between programmers and normal computer users. Like the author says at the beginning, any experienced developer knows that automating interaction with a GUI is a crazy idea. It's a painful, fragile way to move data around. But to the author and anyone who's done data entry, it's an improvement to their workday that demonstrates the power of programming.…

I'd be interested in seeing an accompanying article by the author or another developer laying out how you would solve the same problem if you were an "experienced" developer; I have done a little of the same type of programming at my job, and a side-by-side comparison of the 'novice' and 'pro' approach would be extremely helpful.

Maybe I was too vague. I meant that a programmer would always use an API rather than scripted interactions with a GUI. An ordinary user might assume that programs use interfaces designed for humans, because the concept of an API doesn't even have a place in his mental model of how computers work.

Re: Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat

#33

Post by mschuster91 » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 2:11 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #31

mschuster91 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's my understanding that every country in the world wants to know the criminal history of anyone asking for a visa for any reason I'm actually fine with that. And if I ever apply for a visa, I gladly sign a waiver allowing the respective country to request the data from my country. But I am not fine with any government in the world being able to research my criminal record without authorization! Push, not pull. >…

>But I am not fine with any government in the world being able to research my criminal record without authorization! Criminal records are a matter of public record in most countries (including the US). That means that anyone can search your criminal history, not just governments. There may not always be a central database, but the information is out there.

Back when the rules placing criminal records in public were drafted, these records were usually kept at a courthouse, thus greatly restricting their use to those who actually traveled to the courthouse/archive and manually searched.

These days, everything can be searched online and especially copied and stored everywhere, far after expiration. And this is not a good development at all.

Re: Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat

#34

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 2:22 AM UTC

blackbagboys wrote: post #30

elwin wrote: post #3

The article shows an interesting illustration of the disconnect between programmers and normal computer users. Like the author says at the beginning, any experienced developer knows that automating interaction with a GUI is a crazy idea. It's a painful, fragile way to move data around. But to the author and anyone who's done data entry, it's an improvement to their workday that demonstrates the power of programming.…

I'd be interested in seeing an accompanying article by the author or another developer laying out how you would solve the same problem if you were an "experienced" developer; I have done a little of the same type of programming at my job, and a side-by-side comparison of the 'novice' and 'pro' approach would be extremely helpful.

[deleted]

Re: Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat

#35

Post by hjAETGHs » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 2:39 AM UTC

elwin wrote: post #3

The article shows an interesting illustration of the disconnect between programmers and normal computer users. Like the author says at the beginning, any experienced developer knows that automating interaction with a GUI is a crazy idea. It's a painful, fragile way to move data around. But to the author and anyone who's done data entry, it's an improvement to their workday that demonstrates the power of programming.…

seems like everyone forgot about vba and vb6 already....

Re: Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat

#36

Post by seanmcdirmid » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 2:44 AM UTC

Jezparov wrote: post #26

This is a really great post. For me, the recurring theme is knowing what's possible. From a class he took in high school, Vik knew that some sort of automation was possible. That spurred some reading and exploration, which led to some success. Success led to thinking about other opportunities for automation and more exploration of what's possible, which in turn led to more success. To me, it absolutely doesn't matter…

Equally important to knowing what is possible is to not know what is considered impossible, or at least considered very hard. Automation is often considered futile, and knowing that can be intimidating. We are often limited by what we think is impossible, but really isn't.

It is said that most Nobel prizes are earned for research done before 30, since any older and they would know the breakthrough they are trying to accomplish is impossible :)

Re: Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat

#37

Post by learc83 » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 4:05 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #33

learc83 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But I am not fine with any government in the world being able to research my criminal record without authorization! Criminal records are a matter of public record in most countries (including the US). That means that anyone can search your criminal history, not just governments. There may not always be a central database, but the information is out there.

Back when the rules placing criminal records in public were drafted, these records were usually kept at a courthouse, thus greatly restricting their use to those who actually traveled to the courthouse/archive and manually searched. These days, everything can be searched online and especially copied and stored everywhere, far after expiration. And this is not a good development at all.

Yes, they used to be stored in a courthouse, but most people didn't leave the area they were born in either, so for the average person everyone you were likely to meet knew about your past.

Criminal records were always meant to be as public as possible.

I do have a huge problem with the content of criminal records, because I have a huge problem with what we consider criminal--drug offenses mostly.

I also worry a lot more about the non-criminal mistakes we make being available for anyone and for all time.

Re: Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat

#38

Post by Shog9 » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 5:59 AM UTC

hjAETGHs wrote: post #35

elwin wrote: post #3

The article shows an interesting illustration of the disconnect between programmers and normal computer users. Like the author says at the beginning, any experienced developer knows that automating interaction with a GUI is a crazy idea. It's a painful, fragile way to move data around. But to the author and anyone who's done data entry, it's an improvement to their workday that demonstrates the power of programming.…

seems like everyone forgot about vba and vb6 already....

No, but not for lack of trying.

I can imagine trying to solve a problem like this in either; in theory, this is exactly the sort of thing the automation APIs should be good for...

In practice, you would get close and then hit a wall because something critical isn't exposed by the object model and the language itself offers no way around save for the ability to call down to components written in something else. At which point you're dealing with a lot more headaches.

The author illustrates something I think many of us too often forget: ease of use is often determined not by the intended use of the tooling, but by how easily they can be put to unintended uses - which in turn depends heavily on the ability of user to try stuff and observe what happens as a result.

I see more and more people - not programmers - poking around with JavaScript in their favorite web apps for the same reasons: low barrier to entry, low cost to failure, immediate gratification when they hit upon something that works.

Re: Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat

#39

Post by cportela » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 6:20 AM UTC

Retra wrote: post #13

SocksCanClose wrote: post #2

This is a fantastic article and illustrates a HUGE problem in government systems, where data gets aggregated, but not associated.

I had a government job and my boss loved me for doing automation stuff. All of the documentation and data requirements seemed to be written as though a person had to manually do everything -- like they expected a human brain to be making decisions at every step of the process. It just reeks of a lack of care not only for the power of automation systems, but disrespect for the people who have to do that work. Design y…

Yea my university IT job was like that too. Except automating things was part of my job description and I still wasn't given much lee-way to automate things much.

Re: Learning to code kept me sane when I was a diplomat

#40

Post by cportela » Tue, Dec 30, 2014, 6:20 AM UTC

Retra wrote: post #13

SocksCanClose wrote: post #2

This is a fantastic article and illustrates a HUGE problem in government systems, where data gets aggregated, but not associated.

I had a government job and my boss loved me for doing automation stuff. All of the documentation and data requirements seemed to be written as though a person had to manually do everything -- like they expected a human brain to be making decisions at every step of the process. It just reeks of a lack of care not only for the power of automation systems, but disrespect for the people who have to do that work. Design y…

Yea my university IT job was like that too. Except automating things was part of my job description and I still wasn't given much lee-way to automate things much.