Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks. • Hacker News Board

Re: Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks.

#31

Post by MichaelCrawford » Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 6:31 PM UTC

smoyer wrote: post #12

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #2

Me Too. I'll be 51 in a couple months. Age discrimination is widespread in this industry. I get lots of interviews, but quite commonly I find that my interviewer starts finding reasons not to hire me, the very instant they see me in person, and so can see I have grey hair. Discriminating against employees or candidates over 40, for reasons of age, is flatly illegal under US Federal Law, as well as the laws of all the…

I turned 50 last summer and the last time I was looking, I had no problem finding a good job ... perhaps the best job I've ever had. But to survive the interview process, you can't act 50 (or 55 or 51). You need to be current and make it obvious you've kept yourself up-to-date. To a lesser degree you can't look 50 either - I'm fortunate to have been dirty blond when I was younger and my hair doesn't seem to be greyin…

Many young people simply assume I am not up-to-date because of my age.

In reality I invest a great deal of money in technical books, as well as time in reading them, and writing code for the exercises in the books.

Re: Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks.

#32

Post by MichaelCrawford » Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 6:35 PM UTC

smoyer wrote: post #25

mud_dauber wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. Like you, I have fortunate genes & much younger mindset.

One more anti-pattern to avoid during interviews - don't be the naysayer during your interview! If they say they're going to be trying "technology/algorithm/framework X", don't immediately say "that will never work!". Sure you've got 30 years of experience and you've tried that and failed with it 15 times but they're young and impressionable and they can do anything. Plus they might be right in this instance! Instead…

I often get into flame wars during my interview. If the hiring manager says something that indicates he is a jackass, I will quite bluntly inform him of that fact.

For example, Apple's CoreEdit is profoundly nonportable, as well as clearly designed to implement vendor lock-in. There are all manner of ways to store structured data that are quite portable.

So if my interviewer asks me if I have experience with CoreEdit, I will quite emphatically tell them "No, because it's nonportable," then supply some portable solutions such as SQLite.

I don't want to work for a bad manager.

What I have a problem with is someone making assumptions about me, just because they see my grey hair, and the wrinkles in the skin of my face.

Re: Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks.

#33

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 6:35 PM UTC

smoyer wrote: post #25

mud_dauber wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. Like you, I have fortunate genes & much younger mindset.

One more anti-pattern to avoid during interviews - don't be the naysayer during your interview! If they say they're going to be trying "technology/algorithm/framework X", don't immediately say "that will never work!". Sure you've got 30 years of experience and you've tried that and failed with it 15 times but they're young and impressionable and they can do anything. Plus they might be right in this instance! Instead…

[deleted]

Re: Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks.

#34

Post by trcollinson » Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 6:41 PM UTC

wyldfire wrote: post #15

stblack wrote: post #5

This resonates profoundly. But I'll tell you who I REALLY feel sorry for. I feel sorry for today's 20- and 30-somethings who will likely never know the $1000-$2000 days many of us knew in the 80's, 90's and 00's. Back in the days when FedExing diskettes across the planet was a normal thing. Take today's 20 and 30-somethings and project forward 20-years, I wouldn't want to trade positions.

I'm confused: $1000-2000 days? Are you suggesting that there are "many of you" who pulled down ~250-500k USD per year back in the 80s/90s/00s? Which industry(ies)/career(s) are you referring to?

Y2K fears, Mainframe to Server migrations, Command Line to Graphical UI, the Internet! Oh man, those were good times.

However, to be brutally honest, $1000 a day isn't even close to unobtainable now. Many people in this industry pull down ~$250-500k per year.

Re: Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks.

#35

Post by devopsproject » Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 7:34 PM UTC

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #32

smoyer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One more anti-pattern to avoid during interviews - don't be the naysayer during your interview! If they say they're going to be trying "technology/algorithm/framework X", don't immediately say "that will never work!". Sure you've got 30 years of experience and you've tried that and failed with it 15 times but they're young and impressionable and they can do anything. Plus they might be right in this instance! Instead…

I often get into flame wars during my interview. If the hiring manager says something that indicates he is a jackass, I will quite bluntly inform him of that fact. For example, Apple's CoreEdit is profoundly nonportable, as well as clearly designed to implement vendor lock-in. There are all manner of ways to store structured data that are quite portable. So if my interviewer asks me if I have experience with CoreEdit…

> I get lots of interviews, but quite commonly I find that my interviewer starts finding reasons not to hire me

> I often get into flame wars during my interview. If the hiring manager says something that indicates he is a jackass, I will quite bluntly inform him of that fact

Do you see the correlation? If you said this to me in an interview it would be over immediately.

Re: Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks.

#36

Post by MichaelCrawford » Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 7:41 PM UTC

devopsproject wrote: post #35

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often get into flame wars during my interview. If the hiring manager says something that indicates he is a jackass, I will quite bluntly inform him of that fact. For example, Apple's CoreEdit is profoundly nonportable, as well as clearly designed to implement vendor lock-in. There are all manner of ways to store structured data that are quite portable. So if my interviewer asks me if I have experience with CoreEdit…

> I get lots of interviews, but quite commonly I find that my interviewer starts finding reasons not to hire me > I often get into flame wars during my interview. If the hiring manager says something that indicates he is a jackass, I will quite bluntly inform him of that fact Do you see the correlation? If you said this to me in an interview it would be over immediately.

No.

I get lots of interviews with managers who use technologies I'm quite happy with.

When I say I am discriminated against because of my age, it's because I can tell they don't want to hire me, the very instant they look at me.

Do you know the term "code word", with reference to discrimination? With me, I am often told I would not "fit the company culture".

My ex-wife was one a motel manager. She was specifically told not to rent rooms to First Nations people (ie. Native Canadians).

A friend once interviewed to be an apartment manager. She was specifically told not to rent to black people.

However, the owners of that hotel and that apartment, did not specifically come right out and say so. They used "code words", for example the apartment owner told my friend to inform people that spoke in a certain way, that there were no apartments available.

Re: Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks.

#37

Post by japhyr » Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 7:54 PM UTC

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #31

smoyer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I turned 50 last summer and the last time I was looking, I had no problem finding a good job ... perhaps the best job I've ever had. But to survive the interview process, you can't act 50 (or 55 or 51). You need to be current and make it obvious you've kept yourself up-to-date. To a lesser degree you can't look 50 either - I'm fortunate to have been dirty blond when I was younger and my hair doesn't seem to be greyin…

Many young people simply assume I am not up-to-date because of my age. In reality I invest a great deal of money in technical books, as well as time in reading them, and writing code for the exercises in the books.

That sounds good, but it sounds hard to show that to a potential employer and impress them. Have you built anything with what you've learned?

I'm 42, and I performed unimpressively in an interview two years ago. That gave me some motivation to go back and polish the projects I'd been working on, so the projects would speak for themselves. Since then a number of professional opportunities have come up, largely based on the quality of the projects I've been building. It has a snowball effect as well; it's become easier to pick the work I want, and get work in that area.

Re: Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks.

#38

Post by devopsproject » Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 7:57 PM UTC

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #36

devopsproject wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I get lots of interviews, but quite commonly I find that my interviewer starts finding reasons not to hire me > I often get into flame wars during my interview. If the hiring manager says something that indicates he is a jackass, I will quite bluntly inform him of that fact Do you see the correlation? If you said this to me in an interview it would be over immediately.

No. I get lots of interviews with managers who use technologies I'm quite happy with. When I say I am discriminated against because of my age, it's because I can tell they don't want to hire me, the very instant they look at me. Do you know the term "code word", with reference to discrimination? With me, I am often told I would not "fit the company culture". My ex-wife was one a motel manager. She was specifically to…

"not fit the company culture" has many meanings. Again, if you started any type of flame war in my interview, you would be gone instantly

Re: Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks.

#39

Post by MichaelCrawford » Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 8:04 PM UTC

devopsproject wrote: post #38

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I get lots of interviews with managers who use technologies I'm quite happy with. When I say I am discriminated against because of my age, it's because I can tell they don't want to hire me, the very instant they look at me. Do you know the term "code word", with reference to discrimination? With me, I am often told I would not "fit the company culture". My ex-wife was one a motel manager. She was specifically to…

"not fit the company culture" has many meanings. Again, if you started any type of flame war in my interview, you would be gone instantly

I don't start flame wars in meetings. That's because I don't accept offers from companies that I don't respect.

What I'm saying is that hiring managers often tell me I won't fit the company culture, as a direct result of seeing me in person, rather than communicating via email or telephone.

Re: Santa, I'll be 55YO in a few days. All I want is a better job. Thanks.

#40

Post by MichaelCrawford » Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 8:10 PM UTC

japhyr wrote: post #37

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many young people simply assume I am not up-to-date because of my age. In reality I invest a great deal of money in technical books, as well as time in reading them, and writing code for the exercises in the books.

That sounds good, but it sounds hard to show that to a potential employer and impress them. Have you built anything with what you've learned? I'm 42, and I performed unimpressively in an interview two years ago. That gave me some motivation to go back and polish the projects I'd been working on, so the projects would speak for themselves. Since then a number of professional opportunities have come up, largely based o…

I've built quite a lot with what I've learned, however it's not always possible to demonstrate that. Consider that I am not permitted to tell anyone at all what my most-recent project was, other than that it had something to do with OpenGL.

This because the product was an in-house tool for a client of my client. The very existence of that tool is a closely guarded trade secret.

I read Robert Ward's excellent "Debugging C" back in the day. In part as a result of that book, I am better at debugging just about anything than just about anybody. But what can I show to a potential employer or client? "Here's some code that doesn't have bugs in it." Similarly with Scott Meyers' "Effective C++" series.

Three times I have applied to a certain company to write Mac OS X I/O Kit Kernel Extensions - what Apple calls device drivers. All three times, their HR refused to forward my resume to the hiring manager, unless I removed all the experience that wasn't directly related to Mac OS X.

All three times I refused; I first learned to write device drivers by hand-coding LSI-11 assembly into octal, then entering the code into the LSI-11 kernel with an octal keypad and a profoundly primitive debugger called ODT, for "Octal Debugging Technique".

That was in an Intro to Computer Architecture class at UC Davis that I took over the summer of 1981, while I was still in high school.

Whoever it is who keeps telling me to remove my non-OS X experience, clearly does not understand how computers work. Each time I have refused; I don't want to work for idiots.