This is hugely important. The rules themselves are designed to stop people like Amazon abusing the system (and believe me, they abuse it), but there's no provision for smaller companies, no one stop shop for dealing with the VAT authorities. It's going to be a disaster for SaaS startups.
My understanding is that these rules affect everyone in the world who sells into the EU. It doesn't matter if you are located in the US or South Africa or Australia - you will still be expected to account for VAT and submit the returns. I have no idea how this will ever be enforced for anyone outside the EU.
EU VAT rules make EU startups uncompetitive in a global market
31–40 of 71 posts
Re: EU VAT rules make EU startups uncompetitive in a global market
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Amazon do not abuse it, they just run shop from an EU country with low VAT rate (Luxembourg) last I checked." They "abuse" it from the point of view from the countries where they don't pay the VAT.... f.e. the UK would like Amazon to pay VAT in the UK, and not in Luxembourg. So this new law is meant to prevent that, but at the same time waltz over small companies.
UK politicians (judging by recent headlines) also want to leave the EU, or at least threatening to do so if they don't get their way. They might like/want X but they will have to negotiate and endup with X-Y or nothing, since negotiating something as important as VAT while threatening to leave the club is politically counterproductive.
Re: EU VAT rules make EU startups uncompetitive in a global market
#33VISA, Mastercard, Paypal and etc should have systems in order to donate it to the right country (they know the owner of the card). Don't have a solution yet for Bitcoin though...
Re: EU VAT rules make EU startups uncompetitive in a global market
#34This is hugely important. The rules themselves are designed to stop people like Amazon abusing the system (and believe me, they abuse it), but there's no provision for smaller companies, no one stop shop for dealing with the VAT authorities. It's going to be a disaster for SaaS startups.
Amazon do not abuse it, they just run shop from an EU country with low VAT rate (Luxembourg) last I checked. And yes the VAT rules really do add alot of overheads on a business and bloat, which companies elsewhere are not subjected to. I have raised this with Revenue in Ireland (pointing at competitors in US, China etc not held back by paperwork) they ignored it and clarified (I wanted it in writing, I recommend ever…
It's similar to the changes a few years ago to the channel islands that was used (and some say abused) by online CD and DVD stores, including some large high-street names.
Now, the way this has been implemented, and the speed at which a lot of small retailers will have to change their systems is unfortunate, and the EU have shot themselves in the foot there.
Re: EU VAT rules make EU startups uncompetitive in a global market
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, this is really going to entrench the big players (Amazon, Google, Apple et al) who already have your contact details for a myriad other reasons.
Any payment solution that is based on credit cards would have the same contact details. How does size matter here?
That said, I'm really not sure that all this "two pieces of data must be collected" is as onerous as everybody is saying - the guidance seems much looser than that. For each transaction they want 2 consistent pieces of evidence of location, but the sources of said data are fairly broad & include ip address, some form of geolocation and the self reported location by the end-user, credit card location etc etc. Anything that the vendor believes to be reasonably reliable according to their data-model really. See guidance document here: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/tax... which amongst other things states that a country located account number (bank / credit card) combined with a customer self-reported country location is enough in many cases. (This is what Steam requests already btw.)
The problem for vendors is that the rules pushes liability onto them when they want certainty, plus the data storage requirements are fairly stringent (10 years!). The tax authorities are effectively saying: you can either collect enough information to be absolutely certain of the end-user location or collect less and carry the risk that an audit will result in big fines if we decide that you've been attempting to evade VAT by misrepresenting the location of your customers. This is of course no different from any other tax, but with a new system there's always some uncertainty to begin with until things settle down & no one likes uncertainty.
Re: EU VAT rules make EU startups uncompetitive in a global market
#36I intend to stop selling to (non-UK) EU countries in 2015, but I am worried about that decision as it may open me up to discrimination laws. If that's the case, I'll have to close my business entirely.
Re: EU VAT rules make EU startups uncompetitive in a global market
#37This is hugely important. The rules themselves are designed to stop people like Amazon abusing the system (and believe me, they abuse it), but there's no provision for smaller companies, no one stop shop for dealing with the VAT authorities. It's going to be a disaster for SaaS startups.
Amazon do not abuse it, they just run shop from an EU country with low VAT rate (Luxembourg) last I checked. And yes the VAT rules really do add alot of overheads on a business and bloat, which companies elsewhere are not subjected to. I have raised this with Revenue in Ireland (pointing at competitors in US, China etc not held back by paperwork) they ignored it and clarified (I wanted it in writing, I recommend ever…
Re: EU VAT rules make EU startups uncompetitive in a global market
#38The worst part is that non-VAT registered (because of turnover of less than £70K/~$100K in UK) businesses will have to register for VAT in each of the 28 EU countries they sell to individually (and probably in 15+ non-English languages). I intend to stop selling to (non-UK) EU countries in 2015, but I am worried about that decision as it may open me up to discrimination laws. If that's the case, I'll have to close my…