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U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

nytimes.com

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Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#31

Post by Alex3917 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #13
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? (I ask this in hopes of being persuaded, not to defend a position.)

Because colleges have the stated goal of educating people. Its cynical (as the commenter above mentioned at the end) to join the college with no intention of actually getting educated. Its called a 'shill' or ringer - somebody you get from outside to represent you, that is not actually a member of your organization beyond the single task (sports).

> Because colleges have the stated goal of educating people.

And do you suppose that people are just born being really good at sports? Of course not, it takes thousands of hours of learning/education. If we're going to treat things like math and economics as academic subjects, then I don't see how football is any different.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#33

Post by cma »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #5

Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? It's a completely different skillset. I don't blame players for ditching classes to pursue their dreams. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's the same drive as an entrepreneur's: to test yourself, to excel. It's just a different context. They are adults. If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies,…

The replies are saying the schools provide prestige, visibility to scouts, and training/coaching/advice.

Change the terms in your post and theirs a bit, and I can't tell if we are talking about exploiting footballers or participants in the YCombinator program.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#34

Post by jordanpg »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #5

Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? It's a completely different skillset. I don't blame players for ditching classes to pursue their dreams. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's the same drive as an entrepreneur's: to test yourself, to excel. It's just a different context. They are adults. If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies,…

The GPA requirement is incidental. It happens to be the barrier to playing ball.

There is a straightforward economic incentive (money) for both the school and the athletes to practice more and win more, and it plainly has nothing to do with academics, whatever the grand rhetoric about student athletes. As with all such situations, when there is a barrier to economic success, the system will gradually evolve to short circuit those barriers (cheating) as much as is possible within the confines of the rules. This is well documented by now. I have to imagine that UNC was just unlucky enough to get caught.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#35

Post by mbreese »

rrrx3 wrote: post #12
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #5

Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? It's a completely different skillset. I don't blame players for ditching classes to pursue their dreams. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's the same drive as an entrepreneur's: to test yourself, to excel. It's just a different context. They are adults. If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies,…

The problem is that they're being exploited. Choose to go to class or not, they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. This is especially true when they're turning in BS papers for crap degrees that can't and won't serve them once they leave school. A minuscule few make it pro. The re…

Well, they are getting compensation in terms of free tuition, room and board, etc... these things do have significant value. If they complete school, they get to walk away with a degree without any debt. That's not trivial.

However, the athletes are only able to actualize this compensation if they can freely choose their majors, are able to take the classes they want, and actually earn their education. By creating a secondary tier of classes, the school was deliberately exploiting them.

I think that the value of a degree (for an athlete) will vary greatly depending on the school. Some schools are more academically rigorous for athletes than others... UNC apparently was on the low end of the scale.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#36

Post by mbreese »

llamataboot wrote: post #29
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because colleges have the stated goal of educating people. Its cynical (as the commenter above mentioned at the end) to join the college with no intention of actually getting educated. Its called a 'shill' or ringer - somebody you get from outside to represent you, that is not actually a member of your organization beyond the single task (sports).

But this has nothing to do with how NCAA athletics have worked in the US, especially in football, for decades. You can't blame the players, when they are pursuing the sports path open to them, blame the colleges.

The professional leagues are also complicit (baseball less so). Both the NFL and NBA have age limits on their draft picks. At least the NBA has a development league, but the NFL has no farm system to speak of (outside of the NCAA).

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#37

Post by sehr »

dragonwriter wrote: post #17
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? (I ask this in hopes of being persuaded, not to defend a position.)

Colleges are academic institutions. If you want to be semi-pro athlete rather than a student-athlete, you should join a semi-pro team rather than an academic institution.

There are no semi pro football teams. Simplifying it all down to that is naive and ignorant, the athletes are using the system that's been put in place for them to succeed.

Ignoring the NCAA route in favor of anything else at this point isn't just career suicide, it's career abortion.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#38

Post by cgearhart »

cellis wrote: post #18
dragonwriter wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? Because there are semi-pro teams and university teams, and the two things are not the same thing. > If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies, and instead choose to focus all of their energy on sports, then they should be allowed to do that without putting their sports career at risk. Sure, a…

I disagree. Playing sports at the highest levels is an academic activity, it's just not recognized as an academic activity today. You definitely have to study, recognize patterns, solve problems, etc. Just not so much reading books and writing papers.

By the modern understanding of the word "academic" it is more like a skilled trade.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#39

Post by jordanpg »

cellis wrote: post #18
dragonwriter wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? Because there are semi-pro teams and university teams, and the two things are not the same thing. > If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies, and instead choose to focus all of their energy on sports, then they should be allowed to do that without putting their sports career at risk. Sure, a…

I disagree. Playing sports at the highest levels is an academic activity, it's just not recognized as an academic activity today. You definitely have to study, recognize patterns, solve problems, etc. Just not so much reading books and writing papers.

> reading books and writing papers.

So you'd argue that football is an intellectual pursuit in the same sense that math, physics, philosophy, or history is?

That study of the nuts and bolts of the game is worthy of the attention of our finest minds (as a discipline unto itself)?

The "reading books and writing papers" you mention is a severe and tragic distortion of why universities exist. It has little to do with the academic activity that's occurring outside the undergraduate classrooms.

It might be the case that there is a lot of waste happening in universities due to the commodification of education, but that doesn't trivialize the serious work that's still happening, however underfunded it remains.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#40

Post by differentView »

rrrx3 wrote: post #12
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #5

Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? It's a completely different skillset. I don't blame players for ditching classes to pursue their dreams. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's the same drive as an entrepreneur's: to test yourself, to excel. It's just a different context. They are adults. If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies,…

The problem is that they're being exploited. Choose to go to class or not, they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. This is especially true when they're turning in BS papers for crap degrees that can't and won't serve them once they leave school. A minuscule few make it pro. The re…

>they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc.

This is true for only a very small percentage of college athletes.

Most college sports don't generate a lot of money for their schools. Even the most popular sports, men's football and men's basketball, generate big money for a minority of elite programs.

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