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Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

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Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#31

Post by patio11 »

chii wrote: post #27
mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #4

In most of the organizations I've worked for you reach a salary cap as an engineer. The only way to make more is to become a manager where you get paid more simply because you're part of the group deciding how much people get paid. The other career path I've seen is the architect route where a skilled developer no longer codes but instead spends their time helping others design good software.

both of those routes is boring - which route involve working in "the trenches", whilst still getting paid management level salaries? Don't say startup because that's just money earned on risk-taking, not guaranteed payment like a salary.

which route involve working in "the trenches", whilst still getting paid management level salaries?

The engineering track at AmaGooBookSoft. You'll earn +/- $200k a year mid-career and have roughly zero market or execution risk.

There exist many options if you're willing to take more than a W-2 employee level of risk. (e.g. Found a boutique consultancy. Redirect the conversation when your W-2 friends ask what your weekly rate is.)

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#32

Post by hga »

Falsification: around and after age 35 I found it increasingly difficult to find work, until I got a clue and scrubbed my resume of all evidence of exactly how old I was (removed education dates; I'd already been trimming older jobs due to length and lack of relevance). Did that in the midst of one job search and the difference was like night and day.

BIG caveat: my family and I look a lot younger than we are, with no effort at all besides clothing and wearing a backpack I could pass as a 20 something college student through my early '50s. I also had to be careful in talking about my background, in one memorable 2003 interview I let slip that I'd worked on PDP-11s and the technical interviewer who was probably around my age exclaimed "Just how old are you??!?!??!!!"

Which wasn't intentionally an illegal question, just that the mental model he'd been building of me suddenly went TILT. I did get that job, software archaeology where experience made a difference.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#33

Post by alistairSH »

37 years old, studied computer science at university, and have worked in the software industry since graduation. Currently at a mid-size/large, multinational software company.

We have a large number of developers with 20+ years experience. You aren't seeing their resumes because they're here and don't have a reason to leave.

I've been here 12 years now, and if you can't match the 25 days vacation, 10 sick, 12 holidays, plus bump my salary 10% or more, I won't even call you back.

Edit - I'll also note that I'm a project manager by title. I don't have personnel responsibility, so I still get to spend a lot of time on technical issues (and even some coding).

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#34

Post by jwn »

chii wrote: post #27
mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #4

In most of the organizations I've worked for you reach a salary cap as an engineer. The only way to make more is to become a manager where you get paid more simply because you're part of the group deciding how much people get paid. The other career path I've seen is the architect route where a skilled developer no longer codes but instead spends their time helping others design good software.

both of those routes is boring - which route involve working in "the trenches", whilst still getting paid management level salaries? Don't say startup because that's just money earned on risk-taking, not guaranteed payment like a salary.

Boring is subjective.If that's not your cup of tea it's fine but it doesn't invalidate his point about career paths.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#35

Post by chton »

edw519 wrote: post #23

59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've see…

"one year's experience 30 times, not 30 years experience." is a fantastic sentence and I'm stealing it. I've seen too many developers to whom it applies, and it's a great way to express that.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#36

Post by segmondy »

They don't GO anywhere, they STAY wherever they are. Older folks tend to have more responsibilities, family, kids, retirement to worry about etc. They are less risk prone, they understand that office politics comes with it and the next job will still have politics and might be worse, so they stay put. At all companies I've worked for, I've noticed that the young folks are quick to go look for a new job after a year or two, they want new exciting things. Of course people claim that it's because they can get a raise faster if they leave, but it's more than that, some of these older folks are in need of a raise too, but they don't leave or have any plans of leaving, they are not even looking.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#37

Post by protonfish »

Wintamute wrote: post #19

I'd say it's an interplay between the following issues, 1 - Writing code is a young man's game. Older devs get one too many platform/language iterations behind the curve so can't apply for as many jobs - obviously not true for everyone, but could account for something 2 - Older devs are tempted into management, and so write emails for a living instead of code 3 - Older devs may have more commitments outside of work,…

2 - 4 agree with my experience, but you could not be more wrong about #1. The developers that I see with problems adapting to new developments tools and paradigms are younger people who only know 1 framework. Us old timers who are solid in the basics can pick up a new language fast and easy.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#38

Post by throwaway876876 »

edw519 wrote: post #23

59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've see…

Thanks for sharing.

I find it quite amusing, but in my observation, this 25%/75% split can be found in each age group you'd look at...

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#39

Post by michaelochurch »

dannypgh wrote: post #29
michaelochurch wrote: post #15

To get a programming job that can actually use 10+ years of experience, you need to develop strong interpersonal skills and (to put a darker shade on it) learn some CS 666: Software Politics. At that point, the main obstacle to moving into management (needing to bring your interpersonal skills up to, at least, the 25th percentile) is gone. In other words, if you're good enough at interpersonal politics to keep improv…

"It's 100 times harder to become a Principal Engineer (Director-equivalent) than to hop on to the management ladder and make Director. It's 10,000 times harder to become a Google Fellow (VP-equivalent) than to make VP." I think it is obvious given total headcount that there aren't 10,000 times as many VPs as Fellows. And given I know of way more people going from IC to Management positions than the other way around,…

It's not just about the number of slots. It's also about the quality of people.

There may be some jokers who are Principal Engineer at Google, but I never met any. In fact, I met plenty of great engineers who were "only" Staff. So my impression is that you have to be a really good engineer to make Principal.

However, Google's management is below-average by the standard of large tech companies (how else do you explain its use of stack ranking?) and its product team isn't especially good either. I never met a Principal Engineer or higher of whom I knew I could do his job better than he could, whereas I met plenty of high-ranking managers and product people for whom that was obviously the case, and not just to me.

The management ladder, at a tech company, is where you go when you get tired of competing against the best in a field, and prioritize high salary and title. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. People grow up, have families to feed, and take the big-fish/small-pond route. (At Google, that's product or management-- clearly not engineering, where there are plenty of very big fish.) Good for them. It's probably the right decision. It's hard as hell to justify, say, a $200k salary as an AI researcher when absolute badasses are content with $150k. It's much easier to go into the business mainstream where absolute jokers take $500k, by age 40, for granted.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#40

Post by boothead »

edw519 wrote: post #23

59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've see…

I for one would welcome the opportunity to find and learn from people like you. If you guys don't hang out at the latest hot technology meetup and you don't change jobs that much (or that publicly) where does one go to seek you out and make friends?
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