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The third great wave

economist.com

31–40 of 54 posts

Re: The third great wave

#31
post #3

The basic premise of the article (that there are three distinct industrial revolutions with "fallow" periods dividing them) seems to me to be very easy to poke holes in. It's not as if some fundamental force of innovation switched on in 1760 and then faded away in 1830, only to reappear forty years later, as the graph in the article implies. Historians of globalization have been thinking about this stuff in a differe…

Good point.

Industrialization in 19th and 20th centuries caused suffering in the transition period (1st industrial revolution resulted decrease in average height and drop in expected lifespan in Britain) and the public was able to fully enjoy the benefits of the industrialization only after massive political struggle that included violence (revolutions, unions, strikes, assassinations). The end result was society with new laws and new systems for wealth distribution.

Did living standards improve during the Industrial Revolution? http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/09/economic...

If we look into history for cues, industrialization should be seen as two step process:

1. New technology brings new opportunities and makes economy more efficient. It also changes power structures in the society and creates massive imbalances.

2. Dramatic technological changes are followed with equally dramatic changes in society that either happen trough political struggle or violence.

Re: The third great wave

#33

At some point you get a small amount of very rich people with a large pile of very cheap stuff that they cannot sell as nobody else has any money and even if they did, the marginal cost of producing the stuff is less than the cost of running a market to sell it in.

What's to stop them from selling it to each other? Could we see a completely stratified economy, with rich people selling each other the fruits of their automated factories' labour?

> What's to stop them from selling it to each other?

Nothing. This is what we call luxury goods.

> Could we see a completely stratified economy, with rich people selling each other the fruits of their automated factories' labour?

Already exists to an extent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hourglass_economy. (strong high and low ends to the market and hollowed out middle.)

There's challenges: high-end luxury goods that are totally mass produced don't tend to go together, as it feels too "mass market" or low quality (Ferraris have hand sewn leather in the seats, so they are high quality/"feel authentic"). Apple combines mass production with high end pricing/high quality successfully, but they seem to be an outlier to an extent.

The number of ultra high end consumers is by definition quite small, so there's considerations if a company or brand wants to grow beyond the high end of the market.

Re: The third great wave

#34

At some point you get a small amount of very rich people with a large pile of very cheap stuff that they cannot sell as nobody else has any money and even if they did, the marginal cost of producing the stuff is less than the cost of running a market to sell it in.

What's to stop them from selling it to each other? Could we see a completely stratified economy, with rich people selling each other the fruits of their automated factories' labour?

You've described feudalism / serfdom with the sole exception that their "factories" were staffed with what boils down to slaves rather than robots.

It wasn't a paradise for the psuedo-slaves, doesn't matter if you call them serfs or not.

One interesting aspect to think about is if 0.1% of the population owns everything and all they do is trade the output of their factories, they won't have much use for almost all of the worlds land and no interest in almost all of the worlds population. They'll really like the worlds resources until technology makes that irrelevant due to solar or fusion or refining everything out of the ocean or nano-assemblers or whatever.

By analogy, in plains grassland regions, for centuries your worth as a human and a measure of your power was the number of horses you owned. Now, almost nobody owns horses and nobody cares how many horses the hobbyists own other than a small separate distinct subculture of horse people. I had a professor and have a cousin who are horse people, its a respectable, time consuming, mostly harmless, expensive hobby that no longer determines your worth as a human being or worth as a leader or your power over other humans. Anyway the analogy with capital is obvious. When you don't need capital anymore, its worthless other than to tiny subcultures of hobbyists. Very soon, collecting capital will be like collection kerosene lamps, or at most its like collecting antique furniture. People who are into it will be deeply into it and hyper competitive amongst themselves with all kinds of crazy ways to keep score and dominate each other and 99% of the population simply won't care and won't participate. Its vital to realize that most hobbies used to be someones business model, their income stream, their way of life, the millstone around their necks, the core of the economy. Now they're just something eccentric people do instead of watching "Survivor" on the couch like a good American would do. And thats the inevitable future of capitalism. As an eccentricity, I think capitalism might be an OK hobby for the occasional weirdo in a post-capitalist world.

Need to find a way to feed ourselves, organize ourselves, and trade human services among ourselves without capital although with a currency of some sort, because none of us will have any capital at all other than the weirdo hobbyists still into that ancient stuff. So... self replicating solar powered factories that make self contained solar powered hydroponics gardens, like a futuristic makerbot squirting out a futuristic aerogarden, and I trade bitcoins with friends on poker night or for arts/crafts or services.

To some extent you see this already. What does SV care about developers outside SV? Oh nothing you say? Well then, its already happening. What do neocons say about people who are permanently no longer part of todays economy? They don't care at all? Well then. They're not evil, just don't care. Like asking the horse people I know how important jet-ski's are to them, what do you think they're going to say? Everyone else is cool with that, at least as long as they still have bread and circuses and a roof of some sort over their heads, and none of that is going to require capital anymore, which is good, because none of us will have capital anymore, either by choice or not.

Re: The third great wave

#35
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's next? Drones. No matter how strong one's industrial base, warfare has always been limited by the number of boots on the ground. Eventually, one side sees enough body bags (or simply runs out of draft-eligible men) and disengages. There will be no flag-draped coffins to discourage a nation with a fully automated army. War will become a purely financial drain. As technology advances and drives drone costs to the…

Draft-eligible men, huh? You say it like it's something men would want. "I'm eligible for being shipped overseas to kill or be killed. Yay for me." You're worried about what drones will do to warfare? Imagine you're a psychopath ruler of say, 320 million people, you have a massive fleet of killer drones at your disposal and you're electronically monitoring everything your subjects do. There's an old piece of parchmen…

"even after you've completely destroyed the economy.... Can you think of ways to use your fleet of killer drones for maintaining your position in power?"

It is worth pointing out something that a few modern-day tyrants have already discovered to various degrees, which is that the tools of modern oppression require modern economies to keep functioning. If the economy is "completely destroyed", the drones aren't working either. They require power, maintenance, replacement parts, replacement drones, technicians to manage the gear who will need to be fed (and who will be in a position to turn on you), etc. Mind you, small comfort, but a bit of one.

Re: The third great wave

#36
post #8

The one thing a magazine like The Economist won't dwell on is the wars that these sorts of disruptions have triggered in the past. Wars like the French and American revolutions were fueled by an upheaval in weaponry and technology that rendered arrangements like feudalism obsolete. Primitive phalanx and cavalry style engagements could not suppress ordinary commoners anymore, if they had enough muskets and gun powder.…

What's next? Drones. No matter how strong one's industrial base, warfare has always been limited by the number of boots on the ground. Eventually, one side sees enough body bags (or simply runs out of draft-eligible men) and disengages. There will be no flag-draped coffins to discourage a nation with a fully automated army. War will become a purely financial drain. As technology advances and drives drone costs to the…

Drone warfare is terrifying for me.

More hypothetically for me now; horribly immediately for some in Pakistan and Palestine.

But you know how technology goes, especially this kind of technology, it won't be long until everyone has drones. And I don't think any of us will be immune from being victims either.

Even just from a self-interested position, if the U.S. were smart we'd be pushing for international treaties against the use of militarized drones. Just like international treaties against chemical weapons. In both cases, they make warfare just too horrible, and the only way to minimize their use is to make clear international norms that put them beyond the pale.

Of course, instead, we won't even sign the anti-landmine treaty. And are setting an example of maximizing use of militarized drones. One gets the feeling the current governments of the U.S. in the current context wouldn't have agreed to anti-chemical weapons treaties either, if they had a do-over.

Re: The third great wave

#37
I'm not really on board with either the doomsayers or their reassuring don't-be-a-luddite adversaries.

OTOH, It think statements like "capitalism itself may be under threat" are not necessarily nonsensical. Our world is changing incredibly fast. People in their 30s went to school without computers. People in their 40s started work without computers. People in their teens have grown up using the internet as a semi-integrated part of their brain.

That's slightly hyperbolic I suppose, but it isn't nonsensical. The impact of technology on labour markets is profound in a way that genuinely challenges primary cultural institutions, like the concept of your profession. If you are a social media manager in 2014 what will you be doing in 2044?

Who TF knows where cultural institutions need to go to keep up with the changing realities of this world. Capitalism, representative democracy, education, family. These are all institutions that will need to find a way to survive.

Re: The third great wave

#38

The one thing a magazine like The Economist won't dwell on is the wars that these sorts of disruptions have triggered in the past. Wars like the French and American revolutions were fueled by an upheaval in weaponry and technology that rendered arrangements like feudalism obsolete. Primitive phalanx and cavalry style engagements could not suppress ordinary commoners anymore, if they had enough muskets and gun powder.…

Also education, printed books (Martin Luther), non clerical academia, new foods and farming methods (potatoes!), trade wealth. The invention of the company. Colonialism.

We feel a need to put a sort of narrative on these things, but thing develop as a mesh. There is a lot focus on labour replacement technologies this year. But, it could easily be that the technologies historian look back on will be communication technologies. The formation of a global human culture interacting more intimately with each other than Illinois was with Louisiana when the Beatles first said all you need is love.

Who knows what the future brings. Maybe it brings peace and brotherhood.

Re: The third great wave

#39
A lot of people are talking about "basic income" as a solution. Just give everyone a fixed amount of money each month, without means-testing. Then maybe the machines can make the world a utopia for everyone, instead of having a few people at the top who own everything while the masses are desperate.

Personally I think we should pay for it, initially, with a carbon fee, and kill two birds with one stone.

Re: The third great wave

#40
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eventually, one side sees enough body bags (or simply runs out of draft-eligible men) and disengages. That seems to me to be quite an oversimplification of what wins wars. Every war tech has had edge cases that motivated adversaries managed to overcome. For example, despite the Vietcong's gross disadvantage in terms of technology, it's leaders managed to force over time the US's withdrawal. We didn't run out of men…

I think you misunderstand me. The sides can have different thresholds for "too many body bags." The american threshold was lower, because the americans weren't fighting in defense of their homeland. Had the war been a purely financial expense for the US, they would have stuck around for much longer.

Body counts have nothing to do with it. There's no 'differing threshold', even if it might look that way, if that's the only data you have available to you.

A democratic nation-state fights a war in a very different way than one without such sophistication. The American political will to fight arises out of its sense of justice and duty. We really believed we were fighting for freedom. Until it became abundantly clear that we weren't, we were happy to throw men and money into the meat grinder for years upon years.

A non-democratic nation fights for as long as the person directing the war maintains his ability to do so. That is the key difference between a western power and an emerging nation. We've got beliefs that can be orchestrated into terrific displays of force, other nations have to coerce the means to project force from the people somehow.

It's what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. As long as most Americans believe that what we are doing there is right, we'll keep at it no matter what. Oh we might pour more or less money into it, adjust our military footprint, but we're going to keep fighting the good fight for as long as we believe that it's the good fight. That belief is robust, it will resist attempts to dislodge it, the same way that a person's irrational beliefs aren't simply changed.

The Vietcong eventually came to realize this. They used their dwindling resources to stage attacks, not where they were needed militarily, but where they would be filmed. The culmination of this strategy was the Tet Offensive, which was carefully orchestrated to look far more large-scale, at least on cameras, than it was. It was an amazing feat, and it accomplished exactly what it had set out to, to tip the balance of public opinion against the war. Militarily, it was a failure, none of the attacks went anywhere and the fighters faded back into the jungle as quickly as they emerged.

It wasn't anything like how many soldiers we lost that caused us to pull out. It was the public perception of how the war was going, what we were doing there, where it was going.

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