The Free Internet Project • Hacker News Board

Re: The Free Internet Project

#31

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 9:59 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #17

xnull wrote: post #5

This is interesting. Allow me to provide some counterpoints to the bullet points listed for a few (major) countries. China: * The Great Firewall of China blocks people's access to many websites, e.g., Facebook, Google. * Government engages in extensive censorship especially related to political organizing or protests. * Foreign social media apps are banned. Users must use real names on social media. The Great Firewal…

>>>> Just this past year the CIA (under USAID) pretended to be a grassroots movement on Twitter served 'news' critical of the Cuban regime that nearly caused a Cuban uprising. Is this a bad thing? This is just one of the double standards I see people touting. They want every country to enjoy all the freedoms we have and none of the oppressive regimes these people live under. Yet these same people are highly critical…

[deleted]

Re: The Free Internet Project

#32

Post by xnull » Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 10:03 PM UTC

stdgy wrote: post #16

xnull wrote: post #5

This is interesting. Allow me to provide some counterpoints to the bullet points listed for a few (major) countries. China: * The Great Firewall of China blocks people's access to many websites, e.g., Facebook, Google. * Government engages in extensive censorship especially related to political organizing or protests. * Foreign social media apps are banned. Users must use real names on social media. The Great Firewal…

I don't think what you provided are counterpoints, they're facts in support of the point. Censorship in the name of preventing " foreign interference " is no less censorship.

It kind of is though, isn't it?

Isn't assassinating Mostafa Ahmadi Roshan different than assassinating John Doe?

Of course it's censorship. Turns out there is a spectrum to censorship too - like most things, it's complicated and refuses to be black or white.

Re: The Free Internet Project

#33

Post by opendais » Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 10:03 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #17

xnull wrote: post #5

This is interesting. Allow me to provide some counterpoints to the bullet points listed for a few (major) countries. China: * The Great Firewall of China blocks people's access to many websites, e.g., Facebook, Google. * Government engages in extensive censorship especially related to political organizing or protests. * Foreign social media apps are banned. Users must use real names on social media. The Great Firewal…

>>>> Just this past year the CIA (under USAID) pretended to be a grassroots movement on Twitter served 'news' critical of the Cuban regime that nearly caused a Cuban uprising. Is this a bad thing? This is just one of the double standards I see people touting. They want every country to enjoy all the freedoms we have and none of the oppressive regimes these people live under. Yet these same people are highly critical…

> Developers helping these people circumvent the technology that holds them down is good.

That isn't what they were doing. They were creating a tool to manipulate public opinion among its users without their consent.

> I guess it just depends on who's OX is being gored.

No, it has to do with manipulating people through deception.

You don't seem to understand the difference between:

I offer you money/aid/etc and manipulate you into doing what I want.

vs.

You are doing what I want and therefore I provide aid to you.

USAID does both of these things. The first one is bad. The second one is fine.

> America government helping people start revolutions, spread information about how bad their government is and fight back is a bad thing. People creating technology to avoid the NSA and CIA snooping is good thing.

No. The US creates the revolutionaries through manipulation. That is the programs the OP and I are opposed to. "Hey kid, use this service. Oh, we won't mention we plan to study the activities of you and everyone else to see what kind of news we can release to increase revolutionary activity as part of the process."

Re: The Free Internet Project

#34

Post by xnull » Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 10:08 PM UTC

kunstmord wrote: post #11

xnull wrote: post #5

This is interesting. Allow me to provide some counterpoints to the bullet points listed for a few (major) countries. China: * The Great Firewall of China blocks people's access to many websites, e.g., Facebook, Google. * Government engages in extensive censorship especially related to political organizing or protests. * Foreign social media apps are banned. Users must use real names on social media. The Great Firewal…

>As of this year Putin is now requiring bloggers to register if they have a certain number of readers, so that his administration can curtail international misinformation. Yeah, totally, and not because the massive protests in late 2011-early 2012 were partly organized by a blogger/activist. Some of these attempts at what you call "preventing NSA/other evil foreign agency collecting our citizen's data" are more like…

This is a fallacy of the excluded middle. If the blogger was in fact a domestic blogger (was it?), it can in fact be both about domestic efforts to organize and international influence.

The United States and allies have other ways of handling domestic movements, like Fusion Centers and Free Speech Zones (in the US) and partnerships and leverage on media providers.

Re: The Free Internet Project

#35

Post by dethstar » Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 10:12 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #17

xnull wrote: post #5

This is interesting. Allow me to provide some counterpoints to the bullet points listed for a few (major) countries. China: * The Great Firewall of China blocks people's access to many websites, e.g., Facebook, Google. * Government engages in extensive censorship especially related to political organizing or protests. * Foreign social media apps are banned. Users must use real names on social media. The Great Firewal…

>>>> Just this past year the CIA (under USAID) pretended to be a grassroots movement on Twitter served 'news' critical of the Cuban regime that nearly caused a Cuban uprising. Is this a bad thing? This is just one of the double standards I see people touting. They want every country to enjoy all the freedoms we have and none of the oppressive regimes these people live under. Yet these same people are highly critical…

You have to wonder why the America intelligence agencies are working towards this uprising though, interference of American authorities into another countries have proven hurtful[0].

So I guess is all in the intent, while a developer may give their software for free because he believes in free speech. Why would a country want the uprising of another country, which lives under a economic system the former has been arguing against for so long? Why is information about the NSA (and other operations) being hidden but suddenly they're heroes because they release information of other countries?

[0] http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/02/pino-f11.html

Re: The Free Internet Project

#36

Post by happyscrappy » Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 10:36 PM UTC

xnull wrote: post #30

happyscrappy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment comes across as China is just avoiding the West's intelligence services but most of their censorship is for internal control. You don't ban all reference to June 4th because you are protecting your citizens from the NSA.

The blocking of Facebook and Google is directly related to PRISM, social contagion theory, international surveillance, and weaponized media. These issues are extremely complex and no single article or HN comment is going to cover it in it's entirety. I think the second bullet point is awfully good justification for China to have a 'less free internet score'. I'm definitely not going to claim that China doesn't engage…

Weaponized media? Yes the truth is dangerous to dictatorships. You may not be bothered by censorship but you should still realize how futile it is in the internet age.

Re: The Free Internet Project

#37

Post by adwf » Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 11:04 PM UTC

nojvek wrote: post #23

Not sure why India is red. I mean its a pretty crazy country to be in, but no one censors your shit like China.

Wasn't India one of the countries that demanded intercept capabilities from Skype and Blackberry? ie. Break your product or you can't do business. That's pretty hostile as far as internet freedom goes.

Re: The Free Internet Project

#38

Post by krapp » Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 11:17 PM UTC

spindritf wrote: post #28

Why does "left to market" seem to imply "less protected"? I have much more trust in my connection with five competing ISPs than I would have with five regulators. I also find communication with the customer retention department smoother and more productive than trying to figure out which complaint form I need to fill.

Perhaps because markets are meant to optimize for profit, and not necessarily freedom?

Re: The Free Internet Project

#39

Post by icebraining » Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 11:21 PM UTC

lucb1e wrote: post #3

Never knew that the Netherlands and Brazil are the only countries in the world that have net neutrality as a law. Like with legal euthanasia, drugs, gay marriage, etc., as a Dutchman I'm amazed at how non-liberal much of the world is.

As a Portuguese, I have never felt the need for net neutrality laws. I have four ISPs competing to provide me service, and as far as I know they're all "neutral", including with regard to bittorrent traffic and such.

I also raise you full decriminalization of all drug consumption :) though I'd still like to see legalization at least of a few softer drugs.

Re: The Free Internet Project

#40

Post by coolgeek » Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 11:23 PM UTC

"The Free Internet Project is a nonprofit whose mission is to provide the public with information about the latest legal and technological efforts to protect Internet freedoms around the world"

What am I missing here? What are these guys doing that EFF, EPIC or other organizations isn't already doing?