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Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction

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Re: Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction

#32
I've been to LoL HQ and talked to the founders. The offices were fairly dungeon-esque (to be fair I mostly saw the lower levels), but all the employees seemed to be having a blast. I asked one of the founders about LoL being considered a sport, and he argued fairly aggressively in favor of it. He asked me if I considered NASCAR a sport. I said no, and the conversation ended there.

Re: Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction

#33
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you are familiar with DoTA, but can you comment on why DoTA doesn't seem to have the problem with games stalling as players fight for vision control? I believe the DoTA ward model is very similar to the original LoL ward model.

Vision choices are more limited, access to team stealth is just an item away. However, I would say that Dota still has a problem with stalling, maybe even more than League of Legends. There are often one-sided games that drag on for quite a long time before the winning team has a decisive enough advantage to actually finish the game. This comes from a few features, foremost 'buyback' which lets players come back from…

Which is what I like about Dota, with LoL it's usually blatantly obvious who will win by the 10 minute mark but it's not so much so with Dota. Obviously stomps happen and the team that leads at 10 more often than not wins but it doesn't feel as loop sided as LoL does.

Re: Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction

#34
post #8

I played long hours of counter strike, warcraft 3, wow, quake, starcraft 2, and I never liked the original dota map nor LoL. I just think it's a bad mix of several games. The level format doesn't make a lot of sense. It has the disadvantages of a RTS while being some sort of a RPG (little or no persistence), doesn't have a solo mode, and doesn't even allow to control more than 1 unit. It's slow and boring. The conten…

One of the reasons people find DOTA-likes so unlikeable is the incredibly steep learning curve. It is often said that you know nothing about LoL or DOTA until you've played 1000 games. At around 45 minutes a pop, that means you've got to commit way more time than most people have available in order to get good. The games are more like basketball than Quake. 5 on 5, and if 1 player on a team is bad, that team will pro…

It's steep if you can consider a tall cliff steep.

Warcraft 3 has a steep learning curve, like RTS games do in general. One mistake can cost you your hero, which can cost you your hero if the death is untimely. (I guess DotA derivatives are more forgiving in that sense.) But there aren't that many units and heroes to learn, so at least after some time you won't be taken completely aback when your hero gets ensnared, critical striked (struck?) hexed and then critical striked again. I mean, it will happen, but the possibility would have already crossed your mind.

There is a ton of finesse and micro to playing a game like WC3, but learning to play the game isn't that hard; there isn't terribly much that you need to memorize, and then you can concentrate on strategy and mechanics. DotA (derivatives), on the other hand, is built in such a way as to be absolutely relentless towards anyone who isn't already experienced.

WC3 is hard to learn, but not unreasonably so for an RTS. It also has a high skill ceiling. DotA (derivatives) are really hard to learn (I won't comment on the skill ceiling, since I don't know). Yet, people - casual players included - have embraced DotA over the humble original game. I just don't understand the attraction, particularly when it comes to the more casual players.

Re: Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction

#35
post #33
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vision choices are more limited, access to team stealth is just an item away. However, I would say that Dota still has a problem with stalling, maybe even more than League of Legends. There are often one-sided games that drag on for quite a long time before the winning team has a decisive enough advantage to actually finish the game. This comes from a few features, foremost 'buyback' which lets players come back from…

Which is what I like about Dota, with LoL it's usually blatantly obvious who will win by the 10 minute mark but it's not so much so with Dota. Obviously stomps happen and the team that leads at 10 more often than not wins but it doesn't feel as loop sided as LoL does.

> with LoL it's usually blatantly obvious who will win by the 10 minute mark

maybe in the pro games, but even then that's a pretty iffy statement. a bad engage in a teamfight or surprise gank can swing things pretty hard if the teams know what they're doing. in anything below, say, high diamond there's just too many mistakes to make this claim.

Re: Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction

#36
post #21

I no longer play, but I still watch the pro teams from time to time. One of the things that has impressed me the most about Riot's approach has been their willingness to make dramatic modifications to core game mechanics in an effort to keep games exciting for both players and spectators. An example that indicates the difference between last year's world championship games and this year's is the ward system. Wards ar…

I don't know if you are familiar with DoTA, but can you comment on why DoTA doesn't seem to have the problem with games stalling as players fight for vision control? I believe the DoTA ward model is very similar to the original LoL ward model.

Dota's wards are pretty different from LoL. The reason League of Legends used to devolve into a vision battle was that both teams could just keep placing wards as long as they had gold. So one team's support player would just go around placing wards and removing any wards they found, while the other team's support player would go around re-placing their destroyed wards and destroying the other team's wards that went up in the same place. Basically, it was a giant vision circle. Dota never offered unlimited vision.

Here's a quick rundown of the three systems:

Dota:

Observer Wards: Invisible, last seven minutes and give vision of a fairly large area, but there are only four available to each team at a given time. Cost 150 gold for a stack of 2.

Sentry Wards: Invisible, last four minutes and reveal invisible things in a fairly large area, but don’t grant vision of an area (so you need to find some other way to get vision of the area where the invisible thing you want to see is). Cost 200 gold for a stack of 2. There is no limit to Sentry Wards.

Old League of Legends:

Sight Wards: Invisible, last three minutes, give vision of a fairly large area, take three hits to destroy. Cost 75 gold. Unlimited.

Vision Wards: Invisible, last three minutes, take three hits to destroy. Give vision of the same area as Sight Wards, and also reveal invisible things in that area. Cost 150 gold. Unlimited.

New League of Legends:

Sight Wards: Invisible, last 3 minutes, give vision of a fairly large area, take 3 hits to destroy. Each player can only place three Sight Wards at a time. Placing a fourth will destroy your oldest ward. Cost 75 gold.

Vision Wards: Visible, last forever until destroyed, give vision of the same area as Sight Wards, reveal invisible things, take 5 hits to destroy. You can only place one Vision Ward. Cost 150 gold.

Re: Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction

#37
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important attribute of an e-sport is that it should be entertaining to watch. Since LoL is a game where a player controls a single unit, it's easy to follow along for the spectator.

I certainly want to also enjoy playing it, just watching it is not going to be very entertaining to me.

You may enjoy watching this heroic catapult. Incredible pathing win. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9urYeLZ2uk0

Re: Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction

#38
post #21

I no longer play, but I still watch the pro teams from time to time. One of the things that has impressed me the most about Riot's approach has been their willingness to make dramatic modifications to core game mechanics in an effort to keep games exciting for both players and spectators. An example that indicates the difference between last year's world championship games and this year's is the ward system. Wards ar…

I don't know if you are familiar with DoTA, but can you comment on why DoTA doesn't seem to have the problem with games stalling as players fight for vision control? I believe the DoTA ward model is very similar to the original LoL ward model.

I'm far less familiar with DotA in this regard (and other regards) but I'll hazard a guess.

My not-at-all-certain observations are that 1) DotA's jungle is more complex and perhaps a bit larger and 2) DotA's terrain behavior is more advanced [tree removal, cliffs overlooking the river]. These factors would probably make it more difficult in DotA to place wards in the jungle in a way that is highly likely to yield solid intel — you can get a fairly good amount of safe coverage with a defensive ward on the cliff near river, as well as along the river exit once you've advanced past the river. To the best of my knowledge, you're just not going to learn as much from jungle wards in DotA, because of the sight lines and the difficulty of enemy jungle invasion (and perhaps because of the random invisibility rune spawns, though I don't know how much of a factor that is). Contrast all of that with LoL: accessing the enemy jungle is comparatively easy, and key ward placements on the enemy side (especially tri-brush, blue buff brush, and river junction at wraith camp) are almost certain to be high-information investments.

Additionally, in LoL you have to teleport to a friendly creep, structure, or ward; the secondary nature of a ward as a rally point is something that increases the stakes of ward superiority. In DotA (if I'm not mistaken) the teleport limitation is not the same, so the pressure is not the same. I'm sure there are also itemization and ability factors that I have no knowledge of whatsoever. If I'm horribly wrong on this, I welcome a more experienced perspective!

EDIT: `chc has more specific intel on the wards themselves. The team-wide limit on observer wards is a distinct difference!

Re: Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction

#39
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons people find DOTA-likes so unlikeable is the incredibly steep learning curve. It is often said that you know nothing about LoL or DOTA until you've played 1000 games. At around 45 minutes a pop, that means you've got to commit way more time than most people have available in order to get good. The games are more like basketball than Quake. 5 on 5, and if 1 player on a team is bad, that team will pro…

It's steep if you can consider a tall cliff steep . Warcraft 3 has a steep learning curve, like RTS games do in general. One mistake can cost you your hero, which can cost you your hero if the death is untimely. (I guess DotA derivatives are more forgiving in that sense.) But there aren't that many units and heroes to learn, so at least after some time you won't be taken completely aback when your hero gets ensnared,…

To be any good at WC3, you need major micromanagement skills: Blizzard games are what brought us concepts like actions per second after all. It's a bit easier in that respect than Starcraft, but still, it's really about multitasking and micromanagement.

You need a lot of knowledge to play Dota well, but you do not need that micromanagement: Pick a simple hero, like Wraith King, and you control a single character with a single active ability. Even top pros take less actions per second than an average warcraft player.

This difference in skills means that it's much easier to notice your own progress in DotA than in WC3. I watch a top DotA player, and I can see how I can get to be that good. If I look at a top RTS player, I realize I could not get that good if I spent a hundred years training.

Re: Behind League of Legends, E-Sports’s Main Attraction

#40
post #25

While LoL is by far the more popular game, I find what Valve is doing with Dota to be more interesting. They're heavily investing in the spectator portion of the sport, and it's paying off in spades. They've added in the ability to watch replays, see instant-replays during live games (especially useful when the casters miss a battle off screen), see post-battle stats, and view player analytics all in-client. The arti…

I agree that Riot could do more with the spectator experience, but you should be careful comparing Valve's International profits with Riot's Championship Series. For one, the cost of Riot's esports push encompasses the entire scene, around the world. Riot pays player salaries for the players on every professional team in their sponsored series, which have tournaments and matches pretty much every week throughout the year. They have these series in North America, Europe, South America, SE Asia, Korea, China, and Australia, each with many teams of five players each. So, with an armchair estimation, it's easy to see how just the cost of those salaries without any benefits could be in the tens of millions. Then you have to factor in the support staff, facilities, equipment, travel, and much more. Valve sponsors one single tournament a year, and offsets the cost by selling interactive features. Ultimately, they are just different models and I think both could learn from each other.
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