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Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

danilocampos.com

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Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#31

Post by danilocampos »

BrandonM wrote: post #28

I'm surprised that the author could write such a cherry-picked article with a straight face. I clicked through to the six links in the twitter comments. Here's a summary of who made them: 1. bobcostas55: member for 146 days, 42 karma 2. gph: member for 997 days, 634 karma 3. lulzwat1111: member for 32 days, -8 karma, comment downvoted into oblivion 4. aianus: member for 588 days, 369 karma 5. https://news.ycombinator…

You're acting like I only have six pieces to point to. I have dozens. And this is only the set after I started hash tagging.

https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%23hnwatch&src=typd

> I actually think it's good that short-sighted individuals express their bigoted views.

There's a word for this kind of viewpoint.

> It gives others a chance to provide them with some perspective.

While alienating entire groups of underrepresented backgrounds.

Sam Altman says tech needs to fix its exclusionary nature. So he actually agrees with me on this.

I say change begins at home.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#32

Post by figglesonrails »

solipsism wrote: post #24
figglesonrails wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to challenge you, just curious: what is an example of discourse that would be interpreted by someone with said privilege to be civil, yet interpreted by someone else without it to be barbaric, small-minded, offensive, etc. I get that you could have an objective discussion on religion that might be offensive, but does the fact that someone can find it offensive make it "offensive" in general, or does it…

You need me to provide examples of sexism or racism in "civil" discourse? Maybe we don't live in the same society. Read the post that these comments are about. Only a minority of them are trolls. Many are otherwise reasonable and intelligent people saying ignorant and shitty things in calm, civil, flag-avoiding ways. If you don't notice it it's because you're privileged. If you're not, it's like you're swimming in it…

Err, no. I was hoping you could clarify what is meant, like I said. I get the idea of "casual [xxxx]ism", where something is so internalized and normalized that it doesn't even register as shitty.

However, I was specifically asking if you thought it was possible to have discussions on sensitive topics in a civil way or if having a discussion, e.g., "the pros and cons of slavery in America" or "was the prophet of Islam a fraud?" itself is some kind of expression of privilege over the person who would be offended by said discussion.

I'm not too worried about censorship in general, but sometimes the whole "don't be offensive" seems like an open problem and at odds with "have and discuss an opinion that disagrees with others". Just wanted your thoughts on that...

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#33

Post by BrandonM »

danilocampos wrote: post #31
BrandonM wrote: post #28

I'm surprised that the author could write such a cherry-picked article with a straight face. I clicked through to the six links in the twitter comments. Here's a summary of who made them: 1. bobcostas55: member for 146 days, 42 karma 2. gph: member for 997 days, 634 karma 3. lulzwat1111: member for 32 days, -8 karma, comment downvoted into oblivion 4. aianus: member for 588 days, 369 karma 5. https://news.ycombinator…

You're acting like I only have six pieces to point to. I have dozens. And this is only the set after I started hash tagging. https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%23hnwatch&src=typd > I actually think it's good that short-sighted individuals express their bigoted views. There's a word for this kind of viewpoint. > It gives others a chance to provide them with some perspective. While alienating entire groups of und…

> There's a word for this kind of viewpoint.

What would that be?

For the record (and I hope this is clear in the context of the rest of that paragraph), I think getting bigoted views out in the open can be better than the alternative. Open views can be criticized and corrected. Subversive hate or discrimination is much harder to address.

"I say change begins at home," is meaningless. If you want change, go downvote (and possibly reply to) *ist comments in order to set them straight. Form a group of others to help you. Don't get on a soapbox and demand for everyone else to make the world the way you want it without being part of the solution. Taking public figures to task for what you perceive to be their shortcomings (as opposed to their wrongdoing) is not a solution.

Before that, though, try to give people the benefit of the doubt before you respond with venom to them. Mischaracterizing people's positions and attacking out-of-context quotes (as I feel you did with me) are not going to change minds or win over anyone.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#34

Post by danilocampos »

BrandonM wrote: post #33
danilocampos wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like I only have six pieces to point to. I have dozens. And this is only the set after I started hash tagging. https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%23hnwatch&src=typd > I actually think it's good that short-sighted individuals express their bigoted views. There's a word for this kind of viewpoint. > It gives others a chance to provide them with some perspective. While alienating entire groups of und…

> There's a word for this kind of viewpoint. What would that be? For the record (and I hope this is clear in the context of the rest of that paragraph), I think getting bigoted views out in the open can be better than the alternative. Open views can be criticized and corrected. Subversive hate or discrimination is much harder to address. "I say change begins at home," is meaningless. If you want change, go downvote (…

Y Combinator is a 30 billion dollar business. Hacker News is a big part of their operation.

It's not the job of seagulls to organize oil spill cleanup.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#35

Post by BrandonM »

danilocampos wrote: post #34
BrandonM wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a word for this kind of viewpoint. What would that be? For the record (and I hope this is clear in the context of the rest of that paragraph), I think getting bigoted views out in the open can be better than the alternative. Open views can be criticized and corrected. Subversive hate or discrimination is much harder to address. "I say change begins at home," is meaningless. If you want change, go downvote (…

Y Combinator is a 30 billion dollar business. Hacker News is a big part of their operation. It's not the job of seagulls to organize oil spill cleanup.

Let me know when you want to stop speaking in metaphors or empty platitudes or unrepresentative, cherry-picked snippets, and then we can have a discussion. So far, I see no actionable suggestions for how to solve the problem, or even a clear definition of the problem.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#36

Post by danilocampos »

BrandonM wrote: post #35
danilocampos wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Y Combinator is a 30 billion dollar business. Hacker News is a big part of their operation. It's not the job of seagulls to organize oil spill cleanup.

Let me know when you want to stop speaking in metaphors or empty platitudes or unrepresentative, cherry-picked snippets, and then we can have a discussion. So far, I see no actionable suggestions for how to solve the problem, or even a clear definition of the problem.

I'm not here to have a "discussion" with someone who's desperate to defend the powerful from facing their own malfeasance. Your remarks and lack of self-awareness show that you're part of the problem. I don't see any benefit to investing meaningful time in reaching you.

I've provided a case and actionable suggestions here, at a length of 745 words. I'm not going to give you 745 more.

http://danilocampos.com/2014/09/y-combinator-and-the-negativ...

I'm not here to convince you. Your education is your job.

But I am thrilled to continue documenting how, say, software engineering leaders at startups contribute to a culture of exclusion and alienation by making it the jobs of marginalized people to "educate" their more privileged counterparts.

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#37

Post by danilocampos »

BrandonM wrote: post #28

I'm surprised that the author could write such a cherry-picked article with a straight face. I clicked through to the six links in the twitter comments. Here's a summary of who made them: 1. bobcostas55: member for 146 days, 42 karma 2. gph: member for 997 days, 634 karma 3. lulzwat1111: member for 32 days, -8 karma, comment downvoted into oblivion 4. aianus: member for 588 days, 369 karma 5. https://news.ycombinator…

Please enjoy this comment from a user 2k days old with 11k karma:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6165385

> Rape has meanings other than non-consensual sex. GP: Please use the word rape to the full extent provided by the english language, and let those who don't like the word deal with it.

Hat tip:

https://twitter.com/AaronM/status/517372417233002496

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#38

Post by BrandonM »

danilocampos wrote: post #37
BrandonM wrote: post #28

I'm surprised that the author could write such a cherry-picked article with a straight face. I clicked through to the six links in the twitter comments. Here's a summary of who made them: 1. bobcostas55: member for 146 days, 42 karma 2. gph: member for 997 days, 634 karma 3. lulzwat1111: member for 32 days, -8 karma, comment downvoted into oblivion 4. aianus: member for 588 days, 369 karma 5. https://news.ycombinator…

Please enjoy this comment from a user 2k days old with 11k karma: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6165385 > Rape has meanings other than non-consensual sex. GP: Please use the word rape to the full extent provided by the english language, and let those who don't like the word deal with it. Hat tip: https://twitter.com/AaronM/status/517372417233002496

I personally avoid using "rape" in such contexts. I don't like it. I agree with the parent comment, who says that it "is so deeply emotive and meaningful, in such an inappropriate context."

So I agree that the comment you linked to is insensitive. Does that justify attacking me (https://twitter.com/_danilo/status/517371895747194880)?

Can you tell me where you feel that I was defending bad behavior, or bad culture? My claim was that you misrepresented it. You turned that into a very personal attack. Is that OK?

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#39

Post by metavida »

BrandonM wrote: post #35
danilocampos wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Y Combinator is a 30 billion dollar business. Hacker News is a big part of their operation. It's not the job of seagulls to organize oil spill cleanup.

Let me know when you want to stop speaking in metaphors or empty platitudes or unrepresentative, cherry-picked snippets, and then we can have a discussion. So far, I see no actionable suggestions for how to solve the problem, or even a clear definition of the problem.

> I see no actionable suggestions for how to solve the problem

Here are a few actionable suggestions from OP's article:

    * "[Create] a Code of Conduct for Hacker News." This helps all community members share clear expectations of appropriate & inappropriate behavior.
    * "After providing clear guidance for what kinds of comments are acceptable to its values, YC must fund a means of consistent enforcement when content is posted outside those bounds."
    * "[YC] must publicly accept its complicity in building and maintaining a business asset with these negative externalities."
    * "YC must submit to accountability for improvement."

Re: Y Combinator and the Negative Externalities of Hackernews

#40

Post by dragonwriter »

> Hacker News has developed a reputation for toxic sexism and other insensitivity toward folks outside the Silicon Valley in-group of white, upper-class men.

I don't see much evidence that this is particularly true; sure, I see people that complain that it is, and a roughly equal number who complain that HN is overly swamped with politically correct "social justice warriors" and biased against white, upper-class men.

Personally I think its rather balanced and mostly civil, with a few extremes on every conceivable side, with effective moderation (central and community-based) which both keeps a lid on the problems all-around and keeps the level of bias to a lower level than you'd expect given the rather extreme imbalance in the community to which HN is directed.

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