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Rockstor, a Linux and BTRFS Based NAS Solution

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Re: Rockstor, a Linux and BTRFS Based NAS Solution

#32
post #24
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> better in every regard Can't remove raidz's from zpools, but `btrfs device delete` exists.

But lacking raid5/6, even N-way mirrors. ZFS is not perfect, but btrfs is not even close in terms of features.

Btrfs does support raid5/6, I'm using it right now. It is still being refined and has a couple rough edges, but I haven't had any problems in the year or so I've been using it. It is not "production ready" yet for sure, but the support is there.

Re: Rockstor, a Linux and BTRFS Based NAS Solution

#33

All three of the server hardware suggestions are discontinued.

Anyone have suggestions for better servers? I wonder if Rockstore would work well with the backblaze case. Maybe some of the OCP cases would work. Anyone played with those?

I wish I knew first hand how Rockstor would work with backblaze. But 45drives can ship them with CentOS which is what Rockstor is based on.

I've had the opportunity to install Rockstor on various hp gen7 and gen8 servers and had no problems.

I witnessed Rockstor install just fine on an old Isilon node and was told that the performance was quite good -- sorry I have no specifics.

Re: Rockstor, a Linux and BTRFS Based NAS Solution

#34
post #20

The only data protection options I could find were Raid 1, and 10. (raid 0 is a performance option) and as data loss on attempting to re-silver a 3TB mirror is 1 in 5, data protection here is not enterprise quality yet). The UI stuff is great, but the tricky bit about building a storage system is not provisioning it, or getting the access protocols right, it is all about finding all the ways that data can be destroye…

Where did you get your hilarious "data loss on attempting to re-silver a 3TB mirror is 1 in 5" statistic from?

The non-recoverable bit error rate spec.

NetApp tracks it with their Nearstore product line which used SATA drives in a NAS box (they have been for a while actually, when I left they had data on about 65 million drive hours) and while Seagate quotes it a 1x10^15 bits but its actually closer to 5 in 10^15 bits. A 3TB drive has 3x10^13 bits of data (closer to 3x10^14 when you account for track markers and error recovery bits).

If you're bored some time try reading every sector from one of these drives. To maximize your chance of success make sure you operate the drive at a slightly warm temperature (keeps the lubricant from sticking) and isolate it from vibration. Its worse if you read it randomly (you will get some arm servo movement just because the drive will have replaced some blocks from spares, but minimizing it also keeps vibrations down.)

Long before it became an issue on single drives, like it is today, it was an issue when trying to reconstruct a RAID4 (or 5) group that was 3.5TB (which at the time was a 7 disk raid group of .5T drives. 14 disk groups (a full shelf) were pretty much guaranteed to see a second error in the shelf during reconstruction. Which was also way RAID6 or dual-parity RAID became a must have enterprise feature back in 2005 or thereabouts.

On an interesting side note, because the chance of hitting an unrecoverable read error is evenly distributed through a drive, 3X replication is still recoverable even with intermittent read failures. There isn't really a RAID number for that but it does work reasonably well and avoids a pesky parity calculation if you embed check data in your blocks as they do in GFS.

[1] https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/library/proceedin... -- Peter Corbett's paper (he is the guy who invented NetApp's dual parity system, and from that paper the following --

"Disks protect against media errors by relocating bad blocks, and by undergoing elaborate retry sequences to try to extract data from a sector that is difficult to read [10]. Despite these precautions, the typical media error rate in disks is specified by the manufacturers as one bit error per 1014 to 1015 bits read, which corresponds approximately to one uncorrectable error per 10TBytes to 100TBytes transferred. The actual rate depends on the disk construction. There is both a static and a dynamic aspect to this rate. It represents the rate at which unreadable sectors might be encountered during normal read activity. Sectors degrade over time, from a writable and readable state to an unreadable state."

And in experience from the field put it at about 15TB transferred, so 3TB into 15TB, one in five.

Re: Rockstor, a Linux and BTRFS Based NAS Solution

#35
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the process to rolling out btrfs on a lot of production servers (no raid, just subvolumes and compression) using Ubuntu 14.04 - what problems did you encounter with btrfs?

I've hit problems like reaching ENOSPC (even though the data extents were only 70% full) on a colocated server, and there isn't enough free space to run a balance operation to get more free space. (The docs literally suggest inserting a USB stick and adding it to your array to help make the balance work..) Also, the fsck tool is still very immature. It takes many years to get good at detecting and recovering from cor…

had that same problem and additionally performance problems on ssds with fast writes (postgresql) even when turning off the COW

Re: Rockstor, a Linux and BTRFS Based NAS Solution

#36
post #2

the gui looks pretty cool. personally i would not trust btrfs for a nas. i have made not the best experience while running various production servers with btrfs. i switched (back) to zfs and never looked back, it its just better in every regard. i also administer a freenas box for a small business and this stuff is rock solid, i would only wish a _easy_ solution to get the permission stuff right in a multi user setti…

Thanks. We believe it's a matter of short time before btrfs will be trusted enough. Can you elaborate on the permission-stuff issue you have? We'd love to get it right in Rockstor.

basically you need to integrate an ldap server with a decent frontend.

Re: Rockstor, a Linux and BTRFS Based NAS Solution

#37
post #5
post #2

the gui looks pretty cool. personally i would not trust btrfs for a nas. i have made not the best experience while running various production servers with btrfs. i switched (back) to zfs and never looked back, it its just better in every regard. i also administer a freenas box for a small business and this stuff is rock solid, i would only wish a _easy_ solution to get the permission stuff right in a multi user setti…

> better in every regard Can't remove raidz's from zpools, but `btrfs device delete` exists.

in a enterprise setting you rarely want to remove devices/space.

Re: Rockstor, a Linux and BTRFS Based NAS Solution

#39
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get your hilarious "data loss on attempting to re-silver a 3TB mirror is 1 in 5" statistic from?

The non-recoverable bit error rate spec. NetApp tracks it with their Nearstore product line which used SATA drives in a NAS box (they have been for a while actually, when I left they had data on about 65 million drive hours) and while Seagate quotes it a 1x10^15 bits but its actually closer to 5 in 10^15 bits. A 3TB drive has 3x10^13 bits of data (closer to 3x10^14 when you account for track markers and error recover…

[deleted]

Re: Rockstor, a Linux and BTRFS Based NAS Solution

#40
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get your hilarious "data loss on attempting to re-silver a 3TB mirror is 1 in 5" statistic from?

The non-recoverable bit error rate spec. NetApp tracks it with their Nearstore product line which used SATA drives in a NAS box (they have been for a while actually, when I left they had data on about 65 million drive hours) and while Seagate quotes it a 1x10^15 bits but its actually closer to 5 in 10^15 bits. A 3TB drive has 3x10^13 bits of data (closer to 3x10^14 when you account for track markers and error recover…

3TB is 310^12 bytes assuming the decimal bytes used in the storage industry. The uncorrectable bit error rate is for the raw block storage. It does not include the low level formatting, which is no more than 20% of the storage on 512-byte sector drives and less than 10% on advanced format drives. The probability of an uncorrectable bit error when copying 3TB using decimal bytes) is approximately 1.5% under the assumption of a 5 in 10^15 uncorrectable bit error rate:

[1 - (1 - 5 10^-15)^(3 * 10^12)] ~ 0.01488...

If your 20% figure is accurate, the actual uncorrectable bit error rate would need to be something like 7 in 10^14. I am not disputing your empirical information, but your numbers are do not agree with it. The difference in what your numbers say and what you say is only about 1 order of magnitude. Doing statistical calculations with better records could allow the cause of that to be identified.

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