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Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

nytimes.com

31–40 of 48 posts

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#31
post #4

What I would like to see more in these discussions is the possibility of using computers for triage in medicine...too often, these kinds of "will computers replace us" discussions focus on the computers doing everything ...but how about a computer being trained to do as much of the "mechanical" work of a doctor's judgment as possible? Leaving the humans to focus on the 5% An example I have in mind is Apgar's score, a…

Totally agree. Of course there is going to be more backlash if this is described as a "replacement." What's wrong with just offering doctors better tools to do their jobs? We offer them surgical tools, why not software tools? That's a less threatening description...but also a less compelling headline.

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#32
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that is true, by not paying doctors, teachers, taxi drivers, etc. the less consumers there are.

The surplus provides money for the consumers to spend on other things.

Consumers can't consume if they don't have the money. Every time you fire someone and he can't get job for time X, you are reducing overall consumption during that time X.

Instead the money if concentrated in fewer hands and there is an upper limit to what a human can consume (e.g. a single rich person can't eat more than hundred middle class people).

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#33
It can, but not now. Maybe in 10 - 15 years (or more). The numerous available online (mobile apps) symptom checkers are a good indicator of the current state of how a computer can solve your health/medical issue. Computers need a lot more systematic data which is currently not available.

A blod post on this topic: https://medium.com/@iamhealee/you-should-use-symptom-checker...

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#35
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The surplus provides money for the consumers to spend on other things.

Consumers can't consume if they don't have the money. Every time you fire someone and he can't get job for time X, you are reducing overall consumption during that time X. Instead the money if concentrated in fewer hands and there is an upper limit to what a human can consume (e.g. a single rich person can't eat more than hundred middle class people).

If someone is spending less on healthcare, they will instead direct that money into buying perhaps restaurant meals. More demand for restaurant meals means that prices and profit margins in that industry will go up which will cause more restaurants to open, who will in turn employ more chefs and waiters causing their wages to go up and causing them to buy more things (like healthcare).

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#36
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, what is the cause for this in American medicine? Every time I go in for something simple, I have to go through about 3 layers of administrative people before even a nurse practitioner sees me. I'd be really glad if I could interact with a computer-based system in the mean time.

The doctor starts on time. Patient one requires slightly more time than scheduled...repeat for other patients. Also doctors have other tasks than seeing patients: reviewing lab work (part of seeing patients?), pharmaceutical sales reps, signing paperwork, etc. Automation would be nice, but not sure how you could remove all the time sinks in US Medicine. /not a doctor, just observations as an end user.

Unexpected time-sinks are not unique to doctors.

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#38

I despise this attitude that people go to the doctor to figure out what is making them sick. Most of time, when people visit general practice doctors, they already know what's wrong with them. But we have to wait hours or days for an appointment, drive through traffic, sit in a waiting room for hours, and pay a bunch of money so that some jerk can spend five minutes typing our symptoms into his laptop. I get it: they…

your characterization of visits to the doctor is spot on: they are gatekeepers to medication and treatment and they have a warped incentive structure that biases them to under-treat anyone they don't "believe".

on top of what you describe, i find most doctors to be biased towards "i know better than you" behavior. i have found that being an intelligent person makes dealing with doctors especially difficult since you need to be strategic to convince them and at the same time appear to not know too much about your own health problems. i have had incompetent resident doctors argue with me just because i know more about my illness than they do, and their ego is such that they cannot admit to themselves or me that they are wrong.

any technology that leads to me spending less time interacting with doctors is a huge win.

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#39

I despise this attitude that people go to the doctor to figure out what is making them sick. Most of time, when people visit general practice doctors, they already know what's wrong with them. But we have to wait hours or days for an appointment, drive through traffic, sit in a waiting room for hours, and pay a bunch of money so that some jerk can spend five minutes typing our symptoms into his laptop. I get it: they…

Classifying her as a drug user allowed them to just give her some Zoloft, push her out the door, and collect the check. She'll never be the same again. And this happened in one of the best hospitals in one of the best medical centers in the world.

Apparently not.

It's worth remembering as we discuss this that the US healthcare system is exceptionally poor by first world standards. There are all kinds of systemic corruption and perverse incentives that result not from clinical practice but from the legal and insurance systems, and no amount of computer assistance is going to fix those things alone.

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#40
Agree that technology enabling better health care delivery is a great thing and still completely under-delivered. But as for technology replacing doctors...

I think in general it is misunderstood what doctors actually do... ie that they perform some kind of analysis to produce some kind of output. What they actually do, is take responsibility for the well being of a complete stranger. There are certainly a number of doctors that don't understand this, and have some other kind of agenda like making money, getting through another day etc... but ultimately, a doctor's 'special' role is to take responsibility. This is not really measured or paid for or even expected, but I would say that the success of a healthcare system relates to how much it helps or interferes with this process. People don't really get this, because there are very few jobs like this, and we are used to not having anyone take responsibility for anything. Government and business are masters of diluting responsibility in an ocean of bureaucracy. Accountability/transparency are not a substitute for responsibility either.

I don't know how a computer is going to take responsibility for my health, or my child's health. It seems a frankly ridiculous idea to me, like replacing the world's violinists with robots.

There is probably a role for a 'computer' to deal with nuisance (as in, currently a nuisance for the person who has to take time off work, go to a medical centre, wait for the doctor) medical problems like routine blood tests, rewriting a script, routine screening. These jobs are already being taken on by non-doctor health practitioners like physician assistants, nurse practitioners. This is a reimbursement issue really, and it can be done because:

1. There is strong evidence base for the activity (eg doing a pap smear for pre-cancerous cervical lesions, or vaccinating a baby).

2. It is easy to measure the success or failure of the outcome (eg the pap smear is done, or not done).

3. There is a very small risk of legal action. (so that the intervention can be indemnified in such a way that it is still economically viable).

Much of medicine is not like this however. There is not a clear evidence base. There are not easy to measure outcomes. The consequences when things go wrong can be significant for the patient and the doctor/treating team. Health systems are already ruined by an irrational focus on optimizing the wrong thing eg surgical waiting times, time to hospital discharge, profits, so lets not make the problem worse with technology that is apparently better at the outcome we've decided to apply to the cornucopia of human disease and dysfunction.

Disclaimer: I'm a doctor (in Australia). I'm sorry for the waiting times. The truth is, I don't have the skills to invent an adaptive appointment queuing algorithm. Isn't that an engineering problem?

edit: clarity

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