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How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

washingtonpost.com

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Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#31
Reading this article reminded of the time, I used to go to community college, while doing a part time job and interning in downtown SF. In one semester I accumulate about $475 worth of parking and traffic fees. My schedule was too hectic that I could not afford to take public transportation and slow down. Being a working-person the United States is very stressful and undignified in some instances. You can't afford to make mistakes or get sick. In my case, I was lucky that the judge in SF granted me to do community services to pay off the majority of my fees.

Secondly, I am amazed why there are too many policing jurisdictions in each county. You have the City Police, County Police, Highway Patrol, local SWAT teams, and State Police, in addition to Federal and drug enforcement agencies. Too many inefficiencies and redundancies.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#32

>And when I’m late, I speed. How the poor are treated in our country is a crime, yes, but if you can't afford a speeding ticket, you can avoid getting a speeding ticket by not speeding. Going faster than the speed limit doesn't really get you there appreciably faster, but it does increase your chances of being in an accident substantially and greatly increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket. Stealing food…

Technically true, there is an interesting book you might want to read titled, "Scarcity: Why Having Too Little Means So Much" ( http://www.amazon.com/Scarcity-Having-Little-Means-Much/dp/0... ). Its central theme is that scarcity changes the value calculus of our decision making process, and it isn't just about money, it can be making poor choices when you don't think you have enough time for example. In order to cho…

before she was late

For a poor single mother holding a job with few or no benefits and with a support network often consisting of people in worse circumstances, that time may have been back in the heady days of 2005 or 2006.

One might say, some people are born into lateness.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but that literally has nothing to do with the article. People are also getting tickets for things like not having proof of insurance and expired registrations. Furthermore, the system is set up in such a way of encouraging the police to use predatory tactics to produce revenue. This includes giving tickets for things that most other departments consider not being worth enforcing by tickets. Boiling down the ar…

No, the point of the article is people going to jail over minor offenses that snowball into major jail time. And one minor offense they call out repeatedly is speeding. Speeding is the beginning of the record for numerous people cited throughout the article. It's a controllable factor which costs literally nothing, unlike registration and insurance. So why does speeding claim so many?

>So why does speeding claim so many?

You probably think it is because poor people speed more than non-poor people. I would guess that all of us technically speed as soon as we pull out of our drive way. The difference is these places have cops enforcing speeding laws more rigidly

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#34
post #9

How much does it cost to incarcerate people for this long? Does it outweigh the cost of the fines in the first place? If not, why even bother?

Your question suggests the answer. Jails are very often a revenue source. States and the Federal government often provide funds to build and operate the facilities. Courts impose fees on defendants to cover expenses. And of course there are all sorts monetization schemes that work when people have no options:

https://www.google.com/search?q=cost+of+phone+call+from+jail

http://www.buzzfeed.com/justinesharrock/why-does-it-cost-18-...

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#35

>And when I’m late, I speed. How the poor are treated in our country is a crime, yes, but if you can't afford a speeding ticket, you can avoid getting a speeding ticket by not speeding. Going faster than the speed limit doesn't really get you there appreciably faster, but it does increase your chances of being in an accident substantially and greatly increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket. Stealing food…

Technically true, there is an interesting book you might want to read titled, "Scarcity: Why Having Too Little Means So Much" ( http://www.amazon.com/Scarcity-Having-Little-Means-Much/dp/0... ). Its central theme is that scarcity changes the value calculus of our decision making process, and it isn't just about money, it can be making poor choices when you don't think you have enough time for example. In order to cho…

I've not read that book, but there's another factor common in poverty, especially among those living in poverty who are trying to get out of it: extreme stress.

Working your way out of poverty demands superhuman levels of energy and willpower. You have to juggle multiple jobs, each with their own schedule and you have to be able to float through crises. The plumbing failed in your run-down apartment again? Well, it's not like you can call in sick today, you don't have the kind of job that affords you the luxury of taking time off.

When you have kids, it's even more severe. Kids need things all the time: food, school supplies, clothes, attention. They get sick. They need to be supervised at all times.

So you got off work late and you're trying to pick up your kids, who've been waiting at school for 20 minutes already, and you're still hoping to make it to the first half of your class so that you can get the education you need that might help you get out of this whole cycle. You know that eventually a school official is going to complain about leaving your kids outside. What do they care? Your kids aren't their problem. You've already dealt with people from the school before, you don't need another problem with them.

Every minute counts. But now you're stuck at a red light and you know how this cycle works. You drive it every day. If you hit this light while it's red and the next light is green, you'll be stuck at a red light in every single intersection between here and the school.

If only.

If only you had left 30 seconds earlier, you could've avoided the red lights.

If only you had driven just a little faster, you could've avoided the red lights.

If only you had pulled out ahead of that slow senior sedan, you might've avoided the red lights.

While you're sitting there, at the red light, staring at an empty intersection because this light is on a timer and there's no cross traffic, the seconds tick by like minutes.

Your kids are waiting, still.

And you're afraid, too. What if the school official wants to reprimand you? What if they want to argue? You don't have the time. What if that creepy kid is hanging out with your kids right now? Drugs are everywhere, it's hard to keep them away. What if a patrol car drove by and noticed your kids standing outside?

What if, what if, what if. Every second.

--

It's a piece of cake to sit back and analyze this situation from afar: yeah, sure, speeding only saves you 10 seconds on average in a small town. Maybe a minute here or there depending on where you are. It's not worth the safety risk to yourself or others. It's not worth the ticket.

But I don't believe anyone is completely immune to sacrificing their principles or reason in all situations. Live a stressful enough life where every minute counts, and you too will start trading the risk of a traffic ticket for the reward of one extra minute.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#36

>And when I’m late, I speed. How the poor are treated in our country is a crime, yes, but if you can't afford a speeding ticket, you can avoid getting a speeding ticket by not speeding. Going faster than the speed limit doesn't really get you there appreciably faster, but it does increase your chances of being in an accident substantially and greatly increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket. Stealing food…

By not "speeding", you're violating the de facto rules of the road in most places.

In order for your stance to make sense in the universal moral sense, people must respect the law. In order for people to respect the law, the law must conform to normative behavior. Bureaucrats who invert this causality and work to dictate people's common behavior (whether it's 10mph too-low speed limits, drug persecution, or even something a-posteri-innocuous like the MA seatbelt law) are ultimately responsible for destroying this respect and creating a society where everybody is guilty but only selectively prosecuted.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically true, there is an interesting book you might want to read titled, "Scarcity: Why Having Too Little Means So Much" ( http://www.amazon.com/Scarcity-Having-Little-Means-Much/dp/0... ). Its central theme is that scarcity changes the value calculus of our decision making process, and it isn't just about money, it can be making poor choices when you don't think you have enough time for example. In order to cho…

before she was late For a poor single mother holding a job with few or no benefits and with a support network often consisting of people in worse circumstances, that time may have been back in the heady days of 2005 or 2006. One might say, some people are born into lateness.

I disagree. I have some of the same issues as the single mom profiled here, and reading the book helped me connect the dots. Having less of something than is required to meet all of the requirements for that something (the definition of scarcity) triggers this behavior in people. And if you don't actually stop and think about what is happening, you start making choices which are counter productive to your situation.

If you've read the Seven Habits of Highly Successful people one of their points is to invest time to work on 'important' but not 'urgent' things. They argue that by doing so these things do not contribute to 'urgency' later by becoming a crisis. They back into the same, rather powerful concept. Which is that if you don't take time to externalize all the 'costs' you don't effectively manage the resource. In my case I would get a free hour of time and think I could do "anything" with it, but once I started keeping track of things I had put off in my notebook I started recognizing where I'd spend that hour doing something unrelated to the stuff being put off and later that activity was going to be 'urgent' if it didn't get done. By choosing instead to put that hour toward one of my projects needing time I keep them under the crisis threshold. I also recognized things I really wasn't ever going to get to and got rid of those projects entirely from my 'queue.'

It can be challenging to realize that you can only do one thing tonight even though three things are vying for your attention, and pulling an all-nighter (my go to trick for college) really taints the hours you spend on projects the next day, which then take more time than they would have, which means even more things vying for your attention. You have to 'back up' to before that point where you are over loaded and understand what you can really get done in that time and then prioritize based on overall progress against the goals. Relatively easy to say, really hard to do.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#38
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My general guideline for comment threads is that when somebody starts pulling out individual sentences by themselves to quote and then argue with them, they're no longer contributing and can be ignored. I didn't think it would apply to articles too, but here we are. The article goes over a huge number of factors and details about life in this area. Why did you think this one piece was worth pulling out and making an…

A couple of those fines were for speeding That was Bolden’s second arrest. In 2009 she was arrested in the town of Bel-Ridge for a warrant on a speeding ticket. The Foristell warrant stemmed from a speeding ticket in 2011 “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding Both were speeding tickets that he had neglected to pay. a warrant stemming from a 20-year-old speeding ticket. Speed seems to be…

What I notice is that you have not only isolated on one very circumscribed part of the article, but you have also chosen to blame the people getting tickets for infractions that have little to do with traffic safety.

You have therefore missed the point of the article.

I frequently observe this kind of "rational" skepticism in analytical people who are studiously avoiding something uncomfortable.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#39
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm referring specifically to the act of quoting and responding to a single sentence. The representativeness of that sentence doesn't come into it. I'm not saying the act itself is inherently wrong, I'm saying that in my experience it's a reliable indicator that someone is no longer saying anything useful. Again, who are you talking to? These people aren't reading your comment. You wouldn't be telling them anything n…

Who is any of us talking to? There are many comments here on this very thread that are talking to no one (including the top voted one about Finland. We don't make the traffic laws, who cares what Finland does?). The point of Internet forums is to have a discussion. It would appear we are having a discussion. ChuckMcM even linked me to an interesting-looking book. That's the point of Internet forums.

My point is your comment doesn't make any sense when directed at this community either. It's just a pointless statement of obviousness, phrased to communicate maximum superiority.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#40
post #30

As a resident of North County this rings very true. I had a crack in my window. Several hundred to repair that I did not have. Worked part time minimum wage while in college. Need my car to get to work and school. Registration renewal came up. I could not get it renewed because I had a cracked window. Over the next few months going to work to make money to fix my window so I can renew my plates, I get five tickets fr…

One of the biggest gifts my parents gave me was the instructions "if you run unexpected trouble and need money, come to us immidietly". Fourtuantly, I have not had to take them up on this, but this type of safety net would prevent a relativly minor cost (like a broken window) from spiraling like it did in your case (as well as allow me to take more risk by having less in savings to pay off debt faster).

Of course, this 'advice' only works if you are coming from an upper/middle class family...

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