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An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)
31–40 of 110 posts
Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)
#32Ithkuil seems like what a language should be: as the article said, it is both precise and concise. It looks the way Esperanto ought to have looked. I find Quijada's effort deeply impressive. I don't know much about designing human languages, but I know how hard it is to design a decent programming language (see http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html ), and building a serious human language seems orders of magnitud…
Given that you're communicating to an agent who can use context for disambiguation, all efficient languages will be ambiguous.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027711... (Sorry for the paywall...)
So maybe Ithkuil isn't what a language should be after all. And maybe that's why no natural language looks like it...
Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)
#33Reading this story brings to mind the history of algorithms in the field of machine translation. Early attempts at the problem attempted to explicitly define the rules of converting between tongues using meticulously laid out systems of vocabulary and syntax. This approach proved untenable, in part due to the complex and ever changing nature of language. Modern systems such as Google Translation make use of machine l…
It sounds like an experiment worth testing out and could lead to some interesting results. On the other hand, I am imagine most conlangers enjoy devising the details of their language.
Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)
#34Can someone list a few popular constructed languages (maybe comparing them to programming languages)? I'd only heard of Lojban and Esperanto before reading this.
Toki Pona is a minimalist language with a bit of a following. It has 120 root words and tries to build all concepts based on those. Loglan is a predecessor and inspiration to Lojban. Slovio is the Slavic version of Esperanto. Dothraki, Elvish (Quenya, Sindarin), Klingon, Na'vi are constructed languages from popular novels/movies.
> Slovio is the Slavic version of Esperanto.
Someone doesn't understand the point of Esperanto.
Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)
#35The same thing happened to Blissymbols[1], as documented by radiolab[2]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blissymbols 2. http://www.radiolab.org/story/257194-man-became-bliss/
That was a great episode. This has also happened with the language Lojban[1], which was 'forked' from Loglan[2] when the creator starting making copyright complaints so the community could maintain control. Such an odd concept that someone could 'own' a language, but I guess if you created it I can see why you would want to. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loglan
It's a less odd concept if you compare it to Elvish rather than English.
Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)
#36>"Languages are something of a mess. They evolve over centuries through an unplanned, democratic process..."
I'm in awe of the creator of Any language. Because to create a (Good) language isn't easy. This is true or both programming languages and otherwise. However, it comes without saying that adoption is a vital component of any language, and with mass adoption comes evolution.
People will often make changes in languages, make their own dialects (based on things perhaps the can relate to on a deeper level, etc..). This isn't a bad thing. To me it only signifies growth and expansion of the language.
+1
Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
Toki Pona is a minimalist language with a bit of a following. It has 120 root words and tries to build all concepts based on those. Loglan is a predecessor and inspiration to Lojban. Slovio is the Slavic version of Esperanto. Dothraki, Elvish (Quenya, Sindarin), Klingon, Na'vi are constructed languages from popular novels/movies.
> Slovio is the Slavic version of Esperanto. Someone doesn't understand the point of Esperanto.
Regardless of the point, the truth is Esperanto's lexicon is mostly inspired by Romance languages whereas Slovio's lexicon is mostly inspired by Slavic languages. It's not that shocking of a comparison.
Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)
#38This is attracting some reader interest here, so I should probably mention, for other Hacker News participants deeply interested in human languages, a definitive analysis of Esperanto[1] explaining why Esperanto has not caught on with more speakers. [1] http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/
I don't think that explains anything; it looks like a list of aesthetic "faults" that the author finds, unlikely to be recognised by anyone without a degree in linguistics. Surely those faults exist, but it's a stretch to pretend that they alone explain anything. I speak some Esperanto but I'm no zealot. The "explanation" that your neighbours don't speak Esperanto, if such a simplified thing can exist, is probably as…
Agreed: studying Esperanto now makes as much sense as striving to provide CP/M compatibility in your product.
Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)
#39That was an interesting read, but the reporter's breathless assertions frequently got in the way of appreciating Quijada and his idea.
I mean, things like:
> A sentence like “On the contrary, I think it may turn out that this rugged mountain range trails off at some point” becomes simply “Tram-mļöi hhâsmařpţuktôx.”
Simply?
We could have used LZW algorithm and the sentence could probably become even shorter, just a "simple" sequence of random-ish bytes. If you increase the number of allowed symbols, of course you need less symbols to convey the same information. If you allow for a limitless set of words that are dynamically generated from combining many roots, of course the number of words decreases... sometimes down to 1, as in polysynthetic languages. This is Information Theory 101.
Re: An amateur linguist loses control of the language he invented (2012)
#40The same thing happened to Blissymbols[1], as documented by radiolab[2]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blissymbols 2. http://www.radiolab.org/story/257194-man-became-bliss/
That was a great episode. This has also happened with the language Lojban[1], which was 'forked' from Loglan[2] when the creator starting making copyright complaints so the community could maintain control. Such an odd concept that someone could 'own' a language, but I guess if you created it I can see why you would want to. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loglan
I think it's a great lesson for any creator. Just because you have invented something does not necessarily mean you have the right or are capable of dictating how people use it.
I seem to remember Umberto Eco mentioning that he does not offer his own interpretations of his novels for a similar reason, but I can't find the quote.