LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees • Hacker News Board

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#31

Post by johnchristopher » Tue, Aug 05, 2014, 5:52 PM UTC

yulaow wrote: post #25

allsystemsgo wrote: post #3

I don't get it. So if I'm working overtime for my employer, a lot, I'm entitled to money? I get that my work after hours is essentially "free" labor. But I wasn't aware that there are actually laws that say salaried employees are entitled to more compensation when working after hours.

As a EU citizen I hoped to see a /s under your post. I do not want to be rude but here it is obvious that if you work overtime you must be compensated and also very well (usually 1,5-2 times more than regular hours). And not only it, in some states, like mine, you can work only a limited amount of hours (6 or 8, I don't remember well) overtime per week, otherwise it is illegal.

My thoughts, exactly.

I wished that for specific topics such as this one where the geographical location of a poster is highly relevant we would post our locations or have a switch in our profile to get a better outlook of where people are coming from.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#32

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Aug 05, 2014, 5:55 PM UTC

allsystemsgo wrote: post #3

I don't get it. So if I'm working overtime for my employer, a lot, I'm entitled to money? I get that my work after hours is essentially "free" labor. But I wasn't aware that there are actually laws that say salaried employees are entitled to more compensation when working after hours.

You don't understand that if you're working overtime, you're entitled to overtime pay? Where do you think the term comes from?

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#33

Post by walterbell » Tue, Aug 05, 2014, 5:56 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #13

revelation wrote: post #4

prohibiting off-the-clock work to all nonexempt employees I presume this doesn't include computer professionals , which for some reason are exempt [1], as are sales staff on commission or, you know, farmworkers . Can someone explain why this insanity continues? The original source for that exemption seems to be [2], an act from 1990 To eliminate "substantial documentary evidence" requirement for minimum wage determin…

That is insanity: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17e_compute... The computer employee exemption does not include employees engaged in the manufacture or repair of computer hardware and related equipment. Employees whose work is highly dependent upon, or facilitated by, the use of computers and computer software programs (e.g., engineers, drafters and others skilled in computer-aided design software)…

> OT for software engineers is seemingly non-existent for effectively the same job. I'd love to find out who got that loophole passed.

Recruiter lobby: http://andreas.com/faq-overtime.html

"The recruiters accepted our exemptions because they were going after bigger fish: the engineers. The computer engineers who work as W-2 contractors are generally earning $100-300/hr and often work 60-80 hours per week. The recruiters were afraid that if such workers were entitled to overtime pay, the companies may cut overtime work, and therefore the recruiters would lose their 30-50% share of that money (this can be much as $6,000 per week to a recruiter for a single worker.)

Engineers have always refused to organize or even to be aware of their interests: they think recruiters are their friends. One engineer said to me: "Engineers think they're so smart that no one could do such a thing to them. Wow. They got really screwed." The law is an annual loss of as much as $50-75,000 dollars per each engineer. Yep, it's legal. The recuiters wrote a law to take away their money. Silicon Valley engineers were plundered by their "friends"."

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#34

Post by baddox » Tue, Aug 05, 2014, 5:58 PM UTC

Semaphor wrote: post #20

allsystemsgo wrote: post #3

I don't get it. So if I'm working overtime for my employer, a lot, I'm entitled to money? I get that my work after hours is essentially "free" labor. But I wasn't aware that there are actually laws that say salaried employees are entitled to more compensation when working after hours.

Wait, if you work overtime in the U.S. you do not get compensated for it?

If you're salaried, there's generally no such thing as "overtime" (other than this law, apparently).

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#35

Post by baddox » Tue, Aug 05, 2014, 5:59 PM UTC

georgemcbay wrote: post #30

Semaphor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, if you work overtime in the U.S. you do not get compensated for it?

It depends on your job and other factors, but sometimes the answer is, sadly, yes. My mom is a soon-to-retire nurse and she was a salaried employee who, if she worked overtime, made either time-and-a-half (1.5x) or double-time (2x) pay depending upon the situation. But software developers, for all of the talk of ninjas and rockstars and whatnot, are a socially low and easily exploited class that make decisions agains…

You certainly don't seem to think very highly of software developers.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#36

Post by walterbell » Tue, Aug 05, 2014, 6:00 PM UTC

gnarbarian wrote: post #28

jahewson wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, most HN readers are probably exempt due to the "computer employee" exemption: > Computer Employees: Those who work in computer-related occupations, for example computer systems analysts, computer programmers and computer software engineers, are exempt as long as their work involves a combination of primary duties that include applying systems analysis techniques and procedures, consulting with users to determine…

I wonder what (if there is one) the logical reason behind this exemption is.

One reason is lack of organized lobbying by IT/engineers: http://andreas.com/faq-overtime.html

Another round of policy discussion is underway: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/12/us/politics/obama-will-see...

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#37

Post by throwawayh3d8 » Tue, Aug 05, 2014, 6:08 PM UTC

georgemcbay wrote: post #30

Semaphor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, if you work overtime in the U.S. you do not get compensated for it?

It depends on your job and other factors, but sometimes the answer is, sadly, yes. My mom is a soon-to-retire nurse and she was a salaried employee who, if she worked overtime, made either time-and-a-half (1.5x) or double-time (2x) pay depending upon the situation. But software developers, for all of the talk of ninjas and rockstars and whatnot, are a socially low and easily exploited class that make decisions agains…

Sounds bitter. Software developers are certainly not regarded as socially lower than a nurse, quite the opposite (at least in Europe).

But I _do_ agree that, compared to many other professions prestiges is low. I also agree that it's time for unions, although simply owing the company collectively may work better. More importantly, people should not allow themselves to be exploited and realise that doing so is just as bad for them as for their fellow developers.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#38

Post by fred_durst » Tue, Aug 05, 2014, 6:10 PM UTC

allsystemsgo wrote: post #3

I don't get it. So if I'm working overtime for my employer, a lot, I'm entitled to money? I get that my work after hours is essentially "free" labor. But I wasn't aware that there are actually laws that say salaried employees are entitled to more compensation when working after hours.

The best part about it is when you think about what your hourly rate would be if you made $80,000 and worked 60 hours a week with 20 of them being time and a half overtime.

Comes out to around $22/hr base rate.

You start doing that around $50k and you are around the same pay rate as an overnight stocker at a grocery with couple years on the job.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#39

Post by vvvv » Tue, Aug 05, 2014, 6:10 PM UTC

yulaow wrote: post #25

allsystemsgo wrote: post #3

I don't get it. So if I'm working overtime for my employer, a lot, I'm entitled to money? I get that my work after hours is essentially "free" labor. But I wasn't aware that there are actually laws that say salaried employees are entitled to more compensation when working after hours.

As a EU citizen I hoped to see a /s under your post. I do not want to be rude but here it is obvious that if you work overtime you must be compensated and also very well (usually 1,5-2 times more than regular hours). And not only it, in some states, like mine, you can work only a limited amount of hours (6 or 8, I don't remember well) overtime per week, otherwise it is illegal.

In the UK, you typically sign a waiver, which says you may be require to work more than the statutory 37.5 hours per week.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#40

Post by logicallee » Tue, Aug 05, 2014, 6:13 PM UTC

walterbell wrote: post #36

gnarbarian wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what (if there is one) the logical reason behind this exemption is.

One reason is lack of organized lobbying by IT/engineers: http://andreas.com/faq-overtime.html Another round of policy discussion is underway: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/12/us/politics/obama-will-see...

(Edited to be less sure.)

A third reason might be the argument from market power stemming from the fact that if you can personally create $10 million of cold hard cash value using nothing but a bit of time in front of a computer, and with no long-term detrimental effects on you of any kind, then the fact that you are minting money creates a seller's market (just as there will always be a seller's market for legal currency), and it [might be an argument for] allowing you to work whatever hours you wanted - or sleep in the office, be offered legal drugs, whatever. if you didn't like it you could go somewhere else.

it's very different if you were cleaning staff at any of the same companies. they "need" more protection than you do!

Edit: from your responses it is clear that many people it applies to should also be owed overtime. I was just throwing out one "logical reason".

In addition I've thought of the crazy hours residents and doctors put in - so that high earnings / value add might not guarantee that much market power, if the conditions are the same at all hospitals.

on the other hand much of computer labor is absolutely in a seller's market (from the point of view of the employee) and clearly does not need the same level of protection. there is a lot in many workplaces that a "computer professional" wouldn't put up with for a second.