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We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

m.us.wsj.com

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Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#31

Post by AJ007 »

It is a lose-lose case for the US. If they win the case, other countries say sorry you can't do business here. We already have seen countries such as Brazil and Russia make moves to requiring companies to securely store user's data in country.

This makes a good argument for open source software development and decoupling storage. Software-as-a-service may end up being Commodity-as-a-service. Terrible for enterprises like Microsoft, Oracle, and IBM who want to be global "cloud" providers.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#32

Post by wahsd »

panarky wrote: post #6

Relevant excerpts: Microsoft believes you own emails stored in the cloud, and that they have the same privacy protection as paper letters sent by mail... The U.S. government can obtain emails only subject to the full legal protections of the Constitution's Fourth Amendment... A search warrant cannot reach beyond U.S. shores... [The US government] argues that your emails become the business records of a cloud provider…

If people only realized how our government is the vampire squid that is hell-bent on world domination.

Embrace your future state of slavery, it is invariable.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#33

Post by me1010 »

fooqux wrote: post #15
higherpurpose wrote: post #12

If Microsoft was serious about this, they'd also offer end-to-end encryption for their e-mails (open source protocol, otherwise they shouldn't bother). But because they aren't doing this, it just shows they are more concerned about not losing business overseas than "fighting for your e-mail".

I'm no longer sure that is enough. Considering what happened to Lavabit, just offering end-to-end encryption is only going to work until the government decides they want what you have hidden. I doubt that Microsoft will put up as much of a fight, or take the high road out, like the Lavabit founder did. Fighting them on the legal front to stop such practices from starting may well be the best option right now. Even th…

End users need to and can take control over their own email privacy. GPG. Ten minutes to download, install, and generate a key pair is all you need to secure your email. Perhaps the willingness to do so will increase when the government successfully argues that non-encrypted mail posted through an email server is the same as posting your thoughts on a public peg board...

If you want full compatibility, you can pay a small yearly [extortion] fee to the Verisign gatekeepers... but I prefer not to...

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#34

Post by rhino369 »

rayiner wrote: post #30
rhino369 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A search warrant cannot reach beyond U.S. shores... Well, that is also part of this case. The court is going to determine how to fit data into the current caselaw. There is good reason for why the US can't order searches in another country. But if Microsoft has servers in the United States that can routinely access their cloud servers, there is a good argument that data is really in the United States as well. The bu…

The government's case here isn't a ridiculous one. I can't think of any other situation where there is 4th amendment protection of property in custody of a third party where the custodian has essentially unregulated and unrestricted access to the property and no consequences for loss or damage to the property. Its a really novel argument on the part of Microsoft to claim that your emails on their service are still yo…

I hadn't considered the impact of the fat that Microsoft is data mining.

I haven't read the DOJ's brief, do they raise that argument?

Northwestern lawyers per capita on this chat bort is out of control.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#35

Post by [deleted] »

higherpurpose wrote: post #12

If Microsoft was serious about this, they'd also offer end-to-end encryption for their e-mails (open source protocol, otherwise they shouldn't bother). But because they aren't doing this, it just shows they are more concerned about not losing business overseas than "fighting for your e-mail".

[deleted]

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#36

Post by lisper »

rayiner wrote: post #17
lisper wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your emails become the business records of a cloud provider That is simply ridiculous. Email stored by a cloud provider isn't a business record of the provider any more than the contents of a physical letter stored in a rented mail box is a business record of the box provider.

A physical letter in a rented mailbox is also generally not data-mined for the commercial purposes of the service provider. I think cloud companies essentially want the 4th amendment benefits of treating the cloud like real world private areas (e.g. bank lock boxes), without any of the obligations that come along with that. The "reasonable expectation of privacy" in things like safe deposit boxes or storage units is…

> The "reasonable expectation of privacy" in things like safe deposit boxes or storage units is based on the actual fact that service providers generally do not and cannot access the contents of those rented spaces.

And the "reasonable expectation of privacy" in cloud email is based on the fact that, while computers necessarily have access to the data (it is not possible to provide email service otherwise), humans generally don't.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#37

Post by lisper »

josefresco wrote: post #29
lisper wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you're boosting the WSJ's viewership stats That would be the case whether or not they had a paywall.

Which is my point... maybe the parent commenter does not want to do this - instead of being either lazy or stupid as suggested.

No, because he specifically said he was opting out because of the paywall, not because it was the WSJ.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#38

Post by me1010 »

Kalium wrote: post #28
fooqux wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no longer sure that is enough. Considering what happened to Lavabit, just offering end-to-end encryption is only going to work until the government decides they want what you have hidden. I doubt that Microsoft will put up as much of a fight, or take the high road out, like the Lavabit founder did. Fighting them on the legal front to stop such practices from starting may well be the best option right now. Even th…

If memory serves, the feds had probable cause and a warrant when they want after Lavabit. Lavabit tried to fight it. Lavabit lost. So they shut down instead and tried to spin it as the feds shutting them down.

I believe they were told to hand over the SSL private key. I'm not sure everyone using the Lavabit service was a criminal... So, my thought is that probable cause for handing over the master key to the hotel should be a bit more than probable cause to hand over the room key...

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#39

Post by mkal_tsr »

> The government seeks to sidestep these rules, asserting that emails you store in the cloud cease to belong exclusively to you. In court filings, it argues that your emails become the business records of a cloud provider.

So, how long until Dropbox contents are just a matter of business records?

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#40

Post by krapp »

wahsd wrote: post #32
panarky wrote: post #6

Relevant excerpts: Microsoft believes you own emails stored in the cloud, and that they have the same privacy protection as paper letters sent by mail... The U.S. government can obtain emails only subject to the full legal protections of the Constitution's Fourth Amendment... A search warrant cannot reach beyond U.S. shores... [The US government] argues that your emails become the business records of a cloud provider…

If people only realized how our government is the vampire squid that is hell-bent on world domination. Embrace your future state of slavery, it is invariable.

I don't think there's any shortage of people who believe the US government is a bloodsucking, many-tentacled world-destroying monster. But hyperbole of this degree is neither insightful, nor is it helpful.
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