This rotted apple should not hide the good part of HFT, which is to reduce spread and inconsistencies between markets and to generate profits from this (positive) action. HFT took the place of traders, who were paid a lot for doing that stupid task.
A detailed exposé on how the market is rigged from a data-centric approach
31–40 of 153 posts
Re: A detailed exposé on how the market is rigged from a data-centric approach
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not what's happening here. Traders are arbitraging and reacting to public trades and orders on multiple markets. If you walk through a physical market where 8 apple carts are lined up, all selling apples for $1, buy every apple at cart #1, then buy every apple at cart #2, and so on, would you be surprised to find the price moving up or sellers stepping away as you approached carts #7 and #8? The same thing hap…
If buyers were to time divide their order and time it so the request ended up at each exchange at the exact same millisecond, would this prevent others from reacting to the big trader?
Re: A detailed exposé on how the market is rigged from a data-centric approach
#33I don't fully understand the conditions under which you can cancel an order but it seems all the cancellations happened on exchanges where no orders had yet been fulfilled so I assume this means that the order had not yet arrived. This seems ethically just about OK to me but a sign that there is not one single stockmarket and that the system could be far better designed.
There is the single front-running trade which is suspicious but it seems plausible (unless it happens every time) that it was just a small random trade that happened to coincide with the timing of the big trade. It should be monitored though.
My conclusions:
1. There is not one single market with a number of available shares but a number of linked markets. Send your trade to a single exchange (first at least) with enough offered shares that it should execute before offers can be cancelled. Wait, repeat.
2. Much of the liquidity supposedly offered by HFT is illusory and disappears if you try to use it.
I think that the market could probably be improved if cancellation weren't free or at least weren't instant. If cancellations took a second (maybe 100ms or 10ms would be enough) to process and the offers could still be accepted in that period the offers made would be more serious and although the spread might be slightly larger it would more honestly reflect reality.
Re: A detailed exposé on how the market is rigged from a data-centric approach
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
Guess we'll need a hierarchical token bucket with stochastic fairness queueing as well. We don't just need it to be random. We need there to be no way of ever quite knowing if any given order will beat another order to the exchange (within a given time period, of course). They won't know if they can beat joe ordinary, and they definitely won't know if they can beat the other HFT's. That might be enough to put a lid o…
"For those playing along, here's the metaphor. Joe goes to market to buy sheep. Bill knows Joe is going so he sends a fast runner ahead of him to buy the... " Seriously, how many times have we discussed this issue on this site and we still get this bullshit. Bill doesn't know Joe is going. He doesn't. Get it through your thick heads.
That was my reading of the article - it seems that either there is a flow of information from the trading events to the fast traders, or the scenario portrayed in the article was very unlikely (though I guess that couldn't be ruled out given how much trading there is). noonespecial's metaphor seems to apply, what have I misunderstood?
Re: A detailed exposé on how the market is rigged from a data-centric approach
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Guess we'll need a hierarchical token bucket with stochastic fairness queueing as well. We don't just need it to be random. We need there to be no way of ever quite knowing if any given order will beat another order to the exchange (within a given time period, of course). They won't know if they can beat joe ordinary, and they definitely won't know if they can beat the other HFT's. That might be enough to put a lid o…
"For those playing along, here's the metaphor. Joe goes to market to buy sheep. Bill knows Joe is going so he sends a fast runner ahead of him to buy the... " Seriously, how many times have we discussed this issue on this site and we still get this bullshit. Bill doesn't know Joe is going. He doesn't. Get it through your thick heads.
From what I've gathered, through methods like "pinging" the market with many tiny transactions in likely spots, Bill can sound out what Joe is doing in the sheep market. Supposedly the market exchange will also "flash" the information about buy and sell orders to the HFT's in favorable network locations a few ms faster than the general public as well. Figuring out that Joe is buying sheep are what all of the "brilliant minds" that are heading into HFT everyone is talking about are doing. They're watching the road for Joe. Also Joe is not a small investor, he's a rancher that buys lots of sheep. Small investors don't place the kind of orders that HFT can attack.
Do note that this metaphor really only applies to the Front Running section of HFT, and really evolved from a fanciful attempt to coagulate network layer and application layer solutions into one magical unicorn fix. (Its kind of more about how tc works in linux than how markets work. :) )
Re: A detailed exposé on how the market is rigged from a data-centric approach
#36So why don't exchanges do this? They make a ton of money in fees, it simply isn't in their interest to prevent HFT at the moment. Change their incentives (ie. regulate differently) and they might actually do something about it.
Re: A detailed exposé on how the market is rigged from a data-centric approach
#37Can someone explain what's happening with the order cancellations? What causes it? Who is the party that is canceling orders?
"Holy shit, someone is working there way through every broker, buying ever share of Ford stock they have! ...huh, I've got some Ford stock for sale. Maybe if I quickly pull it out of the shop window, and change the price, I can make some extra cash!" That's what it is: People are seeing the orders pour through the various exchanges, and are reacting to it. If they were seeing the orders before they hit the exchanges,…
It's legal, yes, but you can't make a jump to moral so easily.
I don't think it's necessarily immoral either, but morality depends on much more - what the end results are, who is affected, what kind of effect, etc. Morality doesn't exist in the vacuum of an isolated decision.
Re: A detailed exposé on how the market is rigged from a data-centric approach
#38There are two exchanges, A and B, and a market maker Jill is quoting (say) 10,000 shares on each of those two exchanges for $17.
Big institutional trader Jack sees the 20,000 shares and decides that he wants to buy 15,000 of them, so he sends two orders for 7,500 shares each to A and B. Because of various effects (network latencies, routing switching delays, whatever) his order arrives at exchange A first, and is immediately filled at $17.
Jill, who has her computer co-located at exchange A, sees that she has sold 7,500 shares for $17, and realizes that there is demand for shares. Because of this demand, she decides to raise her prices. She immediately cancels her remaining 2500 shares on exchange A and replaces them with 10,000 shares at $17.05 and sends an instruction to do the same thing at exchange B.
Because Jill has fast computers and low-latency connections, her cancellation arrives at exchange B before Jack's buy order, so Jack is told that there are no longer shares available on exchange B at $17.
RESULT: Jack is filled for 7500 shares at $17 (half of what he requested) and the new market best offer is $17.05. Jack is welcome to submit another order for $17.05 if he wants to buy at that price. Jill is now short 7500 shares at $17, and will try to buy them back at a lower price (she may or may not succeed - until she does, she is exposed to the risk of further price rises).
Jill was able to use her speed advantage to detect that there was additional demand to buy this stock, and raise the price at which she was willing to sell it before Jack had finished buying all that he wanted to. This is exactly the way that an efficient market is supposed to work - it reacts to fluctuating demand (and other information) to set appropriate prices.
I think there are several things that get glossed over while people are working themselves up about this -
1. Jack is upset because he couldn't buy 15,000 shares at the price he wanted to buy them. But Jack has no god-given right to be able to buy shares at the price he likes best. He is subject to the laws of the market, just like everyone else.
2. The only reason that Jill has a speed advantage over Jack is because she has paid for it! She has paid to co-locate her server at the exchange, and she has paid to use high-speed connections between exchanges. Are we going to declare that paying for a competitive advantage is suddenly immoral?
3. If Jack doesn't like this state of affairs, he has several options. He can invest in high-speed infrastructure as well. He can use smarter order-routing logic (e.g. adding delays to his orders so that they arrive at the exchanges approximately simultaneously, or splitting his large order up into multiple smaller orders). Or he can use a broker who will do these things for him. If Jack doesn't want to pay for any of these things, then he has to put up with lower quality execution. As much as he might wish it, the ability to buy as many shares as he wants at the price he wants them is not a universal human right.
Re: A detailed exposé on how the market is rigged from a data-centric approach
#39One way to fix this is to delay your orders carefully so that A, B, and C will all get your order at almost the same time. Now there's not time for someone who sees your order on A to react and send a message to C that will beat your message to C.
I believe this is what IEX does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEX
Re: A detailed exposé on how the market is rigged from a data-centric approach
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Holy shit, someone is working there way through every broker, buying ever share of Ford stock they have! ...huh, I've got some Ford stock for sale. Maybe if I quickly pull it out of the shop window, and change the price, I can make some extra cash!" That's what it is: People are seeing the orders pour through the various exchanges, and are reacting to it. If they were seeing the orders before they hit the exchanges,…
But Nanex appears to be showing people responding to orders after they hit the exchanges, and that would seem to be legal and moral. It's legal, yes, but you can't make a jump to moral so easily. I don't think it's necessarily immoral either, but morality depends on much more - what the end results are, who is affected, what kind of effect, etc. Morality doesn't exist in the vacuum of an isolated decision.