First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out • Hacker News Board

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#31

Post by Riseed » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:19 AM UTC

Lrigikithumer wrote: post #19

frostmatthew wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They celebrated 4th of July yesterday, celebrated their freedom and liberty as their government takes away those core values. For most Americans it's a day of barbecues, fireworks, and beer without much (if any) thought or celebration of freedom and liberty.

Really? I can't click on any link on the web about Independence Day without being bombarded with messages about freedom and liberty which leads me to believe that it is in the minds of US citizens when this day comes about

Yes, there are plenty of messages about "freedom" and "liberty", but that doesn't mean the concepts are truly in the minds of the posters.

"Freedom" and "liberty" seem to be more like buzzwords used on the 4th of July than they are concepts pondered and/or specifically celebrated by the citizenry at large. (But perhaps that's just my biased/warped perception.)

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#32

Post by jonahx » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:22 AM UTC

Lrigikithumer wrote: post #19

frostmatthew wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They celebrated 4th of July yesterday, celebrated their freedom and liberty as their government takes away those core values. For most Americans it's a day of barbecues, fireworks, and beer without much (if any) thought or celebration of freedom and liberty.

Really? I can't click on any link on the web about Independence Day without being bombarded with messages about freedom and liberty which leads me to believe that it is in the minds of US citizens when this day comes about

Words like freedom and liberty are part of the standard rhetoric around the holiday, yes, but few are consciously thinking about those ideas. Practically speaking, the words are on the same level of symbolic pageantry as the fireworks, hotdogs and beer. But I don't think that disconnect is special to fourth of July or to Americans -- in my experience most holidays as well as religious ceremonies are similarly disconnected from their meaningful origins.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#33

Post by krapp » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:24 AM UTC

Lrigikithumer wrote: post #25

krapp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Americans are not aware of their freedoms having been eroded in any meaningful way. Certainly not, to the degree that the linked to poem suggests, that they might eventually be rounded up by a government death squad because looking at Boing Boing pushed their XKeyScore rating past the red line. Americans tend to see things through party politics and identity anyway - and as such, you'll see a much bigger uproar…

>but if what you're expecting is violence in the streets, if you're expecting a revolution like Syria - that's not going to happen. No, absolutely not, violence would only set this issue back (imagine if the NSA now had a "valid" reason to target people, for inciting violence). >Most Americans are not aware of their freedoms having been eroded in any meaningful way. People need to see that their freedoms have been er…

> but tracking peoples every movements via phone and every single detail on their online personas is an incredible breach of privacy and civil liberties.

I've argued with people about that. They typically say they have nothing to hide so they couldn't care less that the government was watching them. And then there are people inside programming circles who say this is just an inevitable part of the information age, and all governments do it, and we should simply learn to live with it.

On the other hand, there's an old man at my gym who on more than one occasion has told me that Obama and the Democrats are going to lead the US into some kind of Stalinist new world order (just wait and see.) This isn't even on many people's radar yet.

>Then it needs to become an issue that Americans care about by the people who do understand how terrible the actions of the NSA are (in this case, most HN readers)

I agree with you entirely. It's a good fight to fight but.. I think it's going to take time before it stops becoming a 'fringe' issue for most Americans.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#34

Post by bithive123 » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:30 AM UTC

I should not need to remind this crowd but if anyone feels doubt over what can and must be done, simply search YouTube for "Eben Moglen"; you can't go wrong.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#35

Post by pwelch » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:32 AM UTC

socrates1998 wrote: post #27

I think most people feel powerless, either financially or technically. Many people I know think what the NSA is doing is completely wrong, but they have problems logging into facebook and getting their email to work, they just feel powerless because they don't understand the technology behind the world they live in. How can they stand up to something they can't even begin to comprehend? The NSA could literally do any…

Your post summarized all of my thoughts. Could not agree more.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#36

Post by staunch » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:37 AM UTC

Lrigikithumer wrote: post #29

staunch wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't actually think the U.S. is the only country spying on its citizens or the world right? The only reason it's even a huge deal is because of the 4th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. In countries without a similar constitutional guarantee your spy agencies probably aren't even breaking the law. They're probably watching everything you do with total impunity.

I'm aware that it's not the only country, all countries have some form of intelligence agency, that's really besides the point honestly, the US has by far the largest, most automated system with frightening capabilities that is targetting everyone around the world. >They're probably watching everything you do with total impunity. I'd rather ere on the side of rationality here and without any evidence to the contrary…

All governments have the technical capacity to secretly scan the internet traffic of their citizens. The only question is whether they choose to do it or not.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#37

Post by Riseed » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:38 AM UTC

socrates1998 wrote: post #27

I think most people feel powerless, either financially or technically. Many people I know think what the NSA is doing is completely wrong, but they have problems logging into facebook and getting their email to work, they just feel powerless because they don't understand the technology behind the world they live in. How can they stand up to something they can't even begin to comprehend? The NSA could literally do any…

I agree, but wanted to add:

For many people, law enforcement doesn't even have to bother planting illegal material. They only have to twist the description of a target's behavior until it fits the requirements for violating a law (e.g. CFAA[1]), or catch the target committing any of the other federal crimes[2] he/she unknowingly commits on a regular basis.

[1] Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act or EFF: https://ilt.eff.org/index.php/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act_%...

[2] The many failed efforts to count nation's federal criminal laws: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230431980...

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#38

Post by me1010 » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:39 AM UTC

javert wrote: post #26

[deleted] wrote: post #6

[deleted]

Because our schools SUCK. Not 100% of them, but 95+% of them. The schools do not teach independent, rational thinking, nor do they do a decent job teaching American history or historical American political values. In fact, they are much more likely to attack them. For example, by claiming that the Founding Fathers were slaveholding bigots, or that early settlers were genocidal. Both of which are oft-repeated claims t…

But the founders of the USA were mostly slaveholding bigots. In fact, one the greatest free thinkers of his time - Thomas Paine - was ostracized by those founding "fathers" for speaking out against the founders' slavery, religious bigotry, and misogyny.

The larger problem with the NSA and the generalized public, is that the problem is too far removed from everyday life. Most people can't figure out where the 'on' button is to their phone or computer, let alone find and download gpg software - or understand the difference and incompatibilities of S/MIME certs versus pgp keys.

And, of course something can be done about the NSA: 1. Encrypt your email. 2. Don't use Google or gmail. 3. Accept bitcoin for purchases.

However, I imagine many that know better complain about the "man" rather than educate the public and insist on changing their own habits.

In short - it's your fault - you give the NSA the power they have.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#39

Post by staunch » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:42 AM UTC

drcode wrote: post #23

staunch wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get good people in at the top that actually reform things and change the organizational culture. It's very fixable. We've already come a very long way. The FBI used to blackmail politicians. The CIA used to frequently replace foreign leaders and even pulled that trick on us one time. Now we have a much more subtle form of unconstitutional behavior. Like Bush before him, Obama thinks it's his "#1 job is to protect…

> You get good people in at the top that actually reform things and change the organizational culture. It's very fixable. "Trust us, everything is fixed now. No, we can't go into detail for national security reasons."

Your pessimism is not supported by history, as was my point. You have to explain how we got from an FBI that blackmails people to an FBI that really and truly does not.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#40

Post by Taek » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 2:45 AM UTC

chx wrote: post #16

There's a bigger problem today: I did speak out. Perhaps you did too. You tweeted, retweeted, commented, blogged etc. Noone cared. What now?

"Like this post if you pray for cancer victims"

I would like to suggest that voting provides a way out. If the NSA had a smaller budget, things might be better. If every branch of our military had a smaller budget, things might be better. Congressmen do listen to us, and if collectively we spoke against the military, there might be success.

Honestly I have no idea how to fight politically. I think we all feel powerless. But there are some things you can do. You can run a tor relay node. You can learn about these technologies and help development efforts. You can participate with Freenode and I2P. You can encrypt all of your connections end-to-end and avoid services that are known to cooperate with 3 letter agencies.

But no matter what angle you pick, you're going to be fighting up hill. It's going to suck, and you aren't going to feel like you're making any progress on your own. But if enough of us rally behind the technologies that protect our rights as human beings, then maybe we can reverse the tide.