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Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

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Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#31

Post by arethuza »

lotharbot wrote: post #15
Mithaldu wrote: post #3

> Doom is about “maneuverability as defense” > ... > There’s nothing quite like it today. There's one game i'm aware of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painkiller_(video_game) By default it also moves fairly slowly, but the player is strongly encouraged and almost forced to use bunny-hopping to gain extreme agility and speed. Most youtube LPs showcase this quite well. "Asylum" and "Snowy Bridge" are imo the highpoint l…

> “maneuverability as defense” the Descent series is all about this, even in multiplayer. Here's a video of two of the best players in the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8eCULTB3IQ (with audio commentary from some of the other best players, starting at around 7%.)

That reminded me that Descent is the only game to really make me feel nauseous - great game though!

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#32

Post by kriro »

tdicola wrote: post #10

Interesting article. I played with making Doom levels back in the day and it wasn't exactly easy. The tools (DEU, DETH, etc.) were generally clunky DOS apps that resembled very simplified CAD programs. Documentation was non-existent or spotty at best, so you really had to spend a lot of time figuring out how to do simple things. It would easily take you months to ramp up and start building levels that were more compl…

The Wolfenstein Map Builder on the other hand was really easy and straightforward. I spend a lot of time building maps with that. Especially silly ones with a lot of hidden corridors (space bar on the wall). First "map" I ever built was just a big room filled with treasure :P

Granted Wolfenstein was a much simpler game. But man I spend hours with that editor.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#33

Post by anon4 »

egypturnash wrote: post #26
Mithaldu wrote: post #3

> Doom is about “maneuverability as defense” > ... > There’s nothing quite like it today. There's one game i'm aware of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painkiller_(video_game) By default it also moves fairly slowly, but the player is strongly encouraged and almost forced to use bunny-hopping to gain extreme agility and speed. Most youtube LPs showcase this quite well. "Asylum" and "Snowy Bridge" are imo the highpoint l…

There's an entire genre that's about maneuverability as defense: "bullet hell" shootemups. (Also known as "danmaku" or "curtain fire".) You know, the ones about flying a little spaceship through these huge, complicated patterns of slow-moving bright pink bullets. And my experience of playing Dark Souls was all about "dodging around like a maniac and not being where enemies were putting their weapons". I mean, if you…

That's Dark Souls 2. Dodging in DaS1 is less I AM FUCKING INVINCIBLE and more I AM INVINCIBLE for a very short amount of time and oh please please let me be out of range by the time my limited invincibility frames run out, plus your dodge is shorter and you can wear a lot less stuff before your rolls get slow. The only way to get DaS2-like dodging in DaS1 is with the dark wood grain ring.

On the other hand, you can parry much more reliably in 1 and I've killed dark knights simply by parrying them 4 times successively. Or you can backstab, since the enemies don't turn as quickly as they do in 2.

I'll agree that a lot of strategy in DaS 1 and 2 comes from careful positioning, given that replenishing your health puts you at a considerable danger while you sit immobile drinking estus and can be interrupted at any time by an attack. However, I find that the two games have a definitely different feel to them, even though they're woven from the same cloth. Another thing is that the camera in DaS2 is much, much faster, due to being truly mouse controlled - you can turn as fast as you can swing your mouse (I still recommend using AutoHotkey to bind mouse buttons to keyboard buttons because otherwise you get lag on attack, due to the game waiting a frame or two to check if you're not double-clicking, since you can bind different actions on single and double click; it's not the end of the world, but it's annoying). In 1, not only is m+kb absolutely unworkable, the mouse has a negative acceleration applied and you can't turn any faster than with a joypad.

I like both, but if you play a long enough time these small differences start getting really obvious.

Also, I haven't seen someone mention the Serious Sam games, so there.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#35

Post by egypturnash »

anon4 wrote: post #33
egypturnash wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an entire genre that's about maneuverability as defense: "bullet hell" shootemups. (Also known as "danmaku" or "curtain fire".) You know, the ones about flying a little spaceship through these huge, complicated patterns of slow-moving bright pink bullets. And my experience of playing Dark Souls was all about "dodging around like a maniac and not being where enemies were putting their weapons". I mean, if you…

That's Dark Souls 2. Dodging in DaS1 is less I AM FUCKING INVINCIBLE and more I AM INVINCIBLE for a very short amount of time and oh please please let me be out of range by the time my limited invincibility frames run out , plus your dodge is shorter and you can wear a lot less stuff before your rolls get slow. The only way to get DaS2-like dodging in DaS1 is with the dark wood grain ring. On the other hand, you can…

Actually I've only one I've been playing is DS1. As an armor-avoidant high dex thief type because that's generally my play style - see my love of being a tiny spaceship dodging giant bullets. Non-boss combat consists mostly of me rolling around like crazy until I can backstab. Also mouse and keyboard isn't any kind of option because I do 90% of my gaming on a console.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#36

Post by cmurdock »

yason wrote: post #30
tdicola wrote: post #10

Interesting article. I played with making Doom levels back in the day and it wasn't exactly easy. The tools (DEU, DETH, etc.) were generally clunky DOS apps that resembled very simplified CAD programs. Documentation was non-existent or spotty at best, so you really had to spend a lot of time figuring out how to do simple things. It would easily take you months to ramp up and start building levels that were more compl…

That was part of the point: back then things weren't supposed to be easy nor documented and investing months to really learn how the intricate details of a Doom map worked paid off in giving us years of fun creating our own levels and episodes.

Oh come on. I think they just weren't user friendly tools. I doubt they developed them with the intention of being obtuse.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#37

Post by NAFV_P »

arethuza wrote: post #31
lotharbot wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “maneuverability as defense” the Descent series is all about this, even in multiplayer. Here's a video of two of the best players in the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8eCULTB3IQ (with audio commentary from some of the other best players, starting at around 7%.)

That reminded me that Descent is the only game to really make me feel nauseous - great game though!

> That reminded me that Descent is the only game to really* make me feel nauseous - great game though!*

What a coincidence, I mentioned Descent's notorious nausea inducing properties on HN a few days ago.

The version I played was on the Playstation One. Because I was resident in Britain I was playing an incomplete NTSC to PAL conversion. This resulted in noticeable object warping if you did a barrel roll. I swear it intensified the effects.

By contrast DOOM on either PS1 or PC wouldn't make me sea-sick at all.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#38

Post by NAFV_P »

Has anyone come across the Neo-Doom megawad?

There is one level with a Cathedral.... you walk in through the entrance to see a few dozen imps standing at pews, and there are a couple of Knights of Hell and a Baron on the front stage giving a sermon.

The mock up was pleasingly realistic, then I noticed that the crucifix on the front wall was inverted.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#39

Post by MrZongle2 »

Gracana wrote: post #27
moultano wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved the movement in that game. I wish there was something modern like it.

Check out Miner Wars, maybe? I haven't played it yet, but it looks cool, and an awful lot like Descent. [edit] Oh, but the reviews are pretty terrible. :|

FWIW: the guys behind Miner Wars (Keen Software House) are working on a new game, Space Engineers, which has full 3D, Decent-like movement. The game is more about construction than combat, though weapons exist in the game. It's currently in beta, but they have been consistently cranking out weekly updates. One of the more tantalizing features they want to add: in-game C# scripting so players can automate a lot of the functionality and build their own communications systems.

Re: Coelacanth: Lessons from Doom (2010)

#40

Post by MrZongle2 »

GlennS wrote: post #29
Mithaldu wrote: post #3

> Doom is about “maneuverability as defense” > ... > There’s nothing quite like it today. There's one game i'm aware of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painkiller_(video_game) By default it also moves fairly slowly, but the player is strongly encouraged and almost forced to use bunny-hopping to gain extreme agility and speed. Most youtube LPs showcase this quite well. "Asylum" and "Snowy Bridge" are imo the highpoint l…

The Tribes series takes this much further. The most recent of those is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribes:_Ascend

It's a shame that T:A is an online-only free-to-play game, meaning that developer Hi-Rez tightly controls distribution and servers and thus hobbles the modding community.
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