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Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

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Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#31

I've liked: Clearing up Mysteries - The Original Goal http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/cmystery.pdf " ...we must keep in mind that Einstein's thinking is always on the ontological level; the purpose of the EPR argument was to show that the QM state vector cannot be a representation of the "real physical situation" of a system. Bohr had never claimed that it was, although his strange way of expressing himself often…

I'm not sure how science can expect to answer questions of the form "What is really happening when... ?", since that is entirely unknowable.

Science looks at results and provides useful models. Whether those models are representations of the 'real', or whether the entire universe is actually a bunch of magic pixies who just happen to arrange the universe to look as if it follows a particular theory, or whether the whole thing is a simulation embedded in the real universe which is entirely different are questions not actually accessible to science.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#32
post #23

Yes! But the best theory is not Copenhagen or Pilot Wave. Eliezer Yudkowski has a brilliant treatise on the Many Worlds interpretation here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/r5/the_quantum_physics_sequence/ that really should be required reading for anyone that wants to talk intelligently on the subject. Edit: seriously, don't even bother reading the article. It (like most science journalism) is garbage. Take the time to work…

May I add David Deutsch's (not yet peer-reviewed, but promising) paper on the Contructor Theory of Information? The Physics arXiv Blog writes about it here: https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/deeper-than-quantu... For the curious, the link to the paper can be found at the end of the article. I remember being downvoted by circle of HN folks who weren't comfortable with Information transfer using Quantum Telepor…

While we're giving suggestions, I'd again point to Scott Aaronson's http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/default.html (also available in book form) and his blog in general (especially when quantum computers are in the news). His approach is unique to me in that it's a strongly computer science point of view.

Edit: Another link I remembered that's strongly in the vein of QM for programmers is (suitably titled) here: http://oyhus.no/QuantumMechanicsForProgrammers.html

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#33

Any ideas on how quantum computing would be explained with this model? If quantum behavior is really classical like I think they're claiming, wouldn't that mean quantum computers wouldn't provide any benefit?

I'm not sure how quantum computing would be explained, but if it is classical then yes, quantum computers really wouldn't provide any benefit. This brings to mind headlines recently on how so-called quantum computers could not outperform optimized classical computers on algorithms specifically designed to cater to a quantum computer's strengths. Of course, then you would have to argue whether there actually are any q…

The D-Wave devices that you are referencing are actually quantum annealing machines, not universal quantum computers. A quantum annealing machine is to a universal quantum computer what a mechanical computer is to a digital processor.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#34
I was under the impression that Bohmian mechanics were known to be equivalent if and only if hidden variables were strictly non-local (in the case of the macrophysical observations, the "universe" can for a reasonable higher-order approximation be the limits of the chamber being observed).

IIRC, There is also an interesting 'alternative' relativity which has non-local effects and a universal frame of reference formulated by a physicist named Frank Tangherlini (I'll be interviewing him this month). It also has weird properties like anisotropy of the vacuum speed of light!!

Might be interesting if Bohmian and Tangherlini mechanics provided a better mathematical rapprochement of quantum mechanics with relativity than Copenhagen/Lorentz/Einstein

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are misrepresenting physicists. There have been many many different attempts to talk about quantum theory on an ontological level. Case in point, the widely debated interpretations: copenhagen, many worlds, bohemian etc. However, one reason that physicists don't spend too much time thinking about what quantum theory really means (besides laziness and bad science) is because we know that quantum theory is not the…

I agree and disagree with what you're saying. I agree it is laziness and bad science that physicists stopped caring about the philosophical underpinnings of quantum mechanics but I disagree that it was because quantum mechanics not being the ultimate theory. The reason most physicists don't think about the philosophical underpinnings has more to do with the way quantum mechanics is taught. Many of the founders were i…

I agree that progress in experimental abilities and QC is really forcing physicists to think carefully about what QM means. In fact the month of May saw three papers by major physicists about these deeper issues in QM [1,2,3] In my own humble capacity as a graduate student in physics, my research is about clearly understanding the divide between classical and quantum physics.

On the rewriting of theory, I should have been clearer. I meant that when you rewrite the theory you should think about ontology. Differences in ontology between different rewrites, as well as interpretations of those rewrites, will point to how quantum theory can be generalized.

I agree completely that quantum mechanics is taught horribly. Strangest of all are introductory quantum/modern physics courses that are meant to give students an intuition of quantum theory use the Copanhagen interpretation -the one that says the least about ontology and emphasizes calculations and empiricism.

I still stand behind my central claim. Let me be clearer. The mathematical model of classical physics says something about physical reality. The mathematical model of quantum mechanics says something very different about reality. Even if there are disagreements, we all agree that the ontology of classical physics is very much incorrect. Extrapolating from this I claim that the next theory of physics will have an ontology that will look nothing like that of quantum theory. As I have said previously, the ontology of quantum theory can be a means to an end (the next theory), but not the end itself.

[1] http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.1548 [2] http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.3483 [3] http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.7577

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and disagree with what you're saying. I agree it is laziness and bad science that physicists stopped caring about the philosophical underpinnings of quantum mechanics but I disagree that it was because quantum mechanics not being the ultimate theory. The reason most physicists don't think about the philosophical underpinnings has more to do with the way quantum mechanics is taught. Many of the founders were i…

My understanding is that the pilot wave theory is a non-local hidden variable theory, which doesn't contradict Bell's theorem at all. Of course, this presents ftl information transfer, presumed to be impossible, which is part of the reason such theories have been unpopular for so long.

[deleted]

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#37
post #23

Yes! But the best theory is not Copenhagen or Pilot Wave. Eliezer Yudkowski has a brilliant treatise on the Many Worlds interpretation here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/r5/the_quantum_physics_sequence/ that really should be required reading for anyone that wants to talk intelligently on the subject. Edit: seriously, don't even bother reading the article. It (like most science journalism) is garbage. Take the time to work…

May I add David Deutsch's (not yet peer-reviewed, but promising) paper on the Contructor Theory of Information? The Physics arXiv Blog writes about it here: https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/deeper-than-quantu... For the curious, the link to the paper can be found at the end of the article. I remember being downvoted by circle of HN folks who weren't comfortable with Information transfer using Quantum Telepor…

I'm skeptical, if only because this should be a big deal and hasn't gotten much press.

> We're able to set the spin (rotational direction) of these particles in a predetermined state, verify this spin and subsequently read out the data.

This is terribly unclear. I don't have access to the article - maybe its better explained there?

The problem with using quantum entanglement for information transfer is that you can't cause a particular spin at either location - they're just both reading random data that correlates. Nothing about this allows any actual transfer of information. Why are they not explaining how they got around this? That's the interesting bit, as far as I can tell.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are misrepresenting physicists. There have been many many different attempts to talk about quantum theory on an ontological level. Case in point, the widely debated interpretations: copenhagen, many worlds, bohemian etc. However, one reason that physicists don't spend too much time thinking about what quantum theory really means (besides laziness and bad science) is because we know that quantum theory is not the…

I disagree completely. Putting quantum mechanics on firm ontological footing will probably aid developing intuition for whatever the real truth of the matter is. Note Einstein developed his theories of relativity based on very scant evidence just by contemplating the aesthetics of what physics should be. I think there's a big lesson to be learned here - that some heuristics are generalizable.

I agree with you. Read my reply to the other comment. I should have been clearer in my first comment.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#39
post #21

Yes! But the best theory is not Copenhagen or Pilot Wave. Eliezer Yudkowski has a brilliant treatise on the Many Worlds interpretation here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/r5/the_quantum_physics_sequence/ that really should be required reading for anyone that wants to talk intelligently on the subject. Edit: seriously, don't even bother reading the article. It (like most science journalism) is garbage. Take the time to work…

So please explain in a few sentences what is that that Yudkowski writes, did he make any new contribution to the standard model or made something else or do you agree that the standard model is the most researched and most usable model up to now, and he just made a lot of posts where he just writes a lot of text? I see a lot of links in the article you gave, but I don't understand what we're supposed to discover in Y…

The Standard Model is a model, not an interpretation. Whether Yudkowsky is right or wrong, anyone's interpretation is going to be text, not physics.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#40
post #9
post #3

Liquid dynamics sounds like an interesting hypothesis, but I agree with the critics that entanglement presents a tough analogy. If Pilot Wave theory suggests that the particle-wave duality is actually two distinct actors - a wave and a particle riding the wave - then 1) each particle has an independently generated wave? and 2) it's difficult to see how that wave could be exactly preserved for both particles over the…

In interpretation of dual slit experiment people do the main mistake of mixing up the 2 waves - one is wave like quantization of position and another is de Broglie wave-equivalent of the particle. The mix up is caused by photon where both have the same wavelength. They are different in the case of all other particles. Hitachi experiment shows its the best - it clearly shows interference of the positional waves of dif…

What is a "Pivot Wave"? Do you mean "Pilot Wave"?
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