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Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

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Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#31

Post by matthewmacleod »

Liesmith wrote: post #24
arethuza wrote: post #20

I wonder how accurate it is to say this is for "all UK schools" as education is pretty heavily devolved in the UK - Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales all have their own counterparts to the Department of Education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_for_Education#Devolu... NB As an aside, from a UK perspective the title is a bit confusing as "public schools" are private schools here. "State schools" would prob…

If you read the article it applies to all the schools that take government money.

It does say that, but news organisations are notoriously poor at articulating the constitutional situation in the UK.

In this case, for example, the move has no effect on Scotland - the education system there is totally devolved, and AFAIK there's no concept of the "free school" or academy model which has been introduced in England and Wales. I'm not sure about the situation in Northern Ireland.

The Scottish Secular Society has been campaigning for a similar ban in Scotland - this will probably happen at some point, although my experience suggests that there's not as much of a problem there anyway.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#32

Post by matthewmacleod »

tptacek wrote: post #6

Politics. Religion. Valence issue. Why is this on the front page of HN? It shouldn't be; I flagged it.

I'm not sure education counts as an entirely political issue.

It's obviously an area that interests the HN community quite a lot - there's a bias towards science and engineering here, and everybody interested in those fields should find the teaching of creationism in a scientific context to be abhorrent. So I think it probably warrants discussion when the education system adopts policies which are actively hostile to the fields many of us are involved in (or in this case, when there's a push back against it).

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#33

Post by rescendent »

philcoders wrote: post #25
daemonk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a bioinformatician with a background in genetics. The argument against evolution in the article, mainly the piltdown man hoax and new sequencing data on neanderthal is extremely weak. I don't think a single example of scientific fraud is enough to discredit the entire community. I actually think the fact that the fraud was found out as a hoax shows that evidence is constantly being scrutinized and re-examined; w…

"The rest of the article dealt with interpreting biblical statements to fit the current undeniable understanding of the universe.", (How do i correctly put a quote here in the replies?) In Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth… This is written before any scientist can confirm it. Thats not interpretation, its a clearly stated fact, "circle". And he points out if other religion gets it wrong.

Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell says the flat-earth error flourished most between 1870 and 1920, and had to do with the ideological setting created by struggles over evolution. Russell claims "with extraordinary [sic] few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#34

Post by arethuza »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #31
Liesmith wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article it applies to all the schools that take government money.

It does say that, but news organisations are notoriously poor at articulating the constitutional situation in the UK. In this case, for example, the move has no effect on Scotland - the education system there is totally devolved, and AFAIK there's no concept of the "free school" or academy model which has been introduced in England and Wales. I'm not sure about the situation in Northern Ireland. The Scottish Secular…

We do have problems related to religion in education - particularly around sectarianism:

http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/supportinglearners/posit...

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#35

Post by Lambdanaut »

philcoders wrote: post #25
daemonk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a bioinformatician with a background in genetics. The argument against evolution in the article, mainly the piltdown man hoax and new sequencing data on neanderthal is extremely weak. I don't think a single example of scientific fraud is enough to discredit the entire community. I actually think the fact that the fraud was found out as a hoax shows that evidence is constantly being scrutinized and re-examined; w…

"The rest of the article dealt with interpreting biblical statements to fit the current undeniable understanding of the universe.", (How do i correctly put a quote here in the replies?) In Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth… This is written before any scientist can confirm it. Thats not interpretation, its a clearly stated fact, "circle". And he points out if other religion gets it wrong.

The Earth is a sphere, not a circle. That's not a nitpick either. They thought the Earth was a flat disk back then.

Regardless. Even if you were dumbly granted that the Earth was a flat disk, how would that have any barring on the rest of the Bible's arguments?

Plato was right about a lot of things, but does that mean he was also right about the elemental nature of the universe? (Everything being created from the base elements of fire, earth, wind and water)

Your argument is bad even if it were correct.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#36

Post by midhir »

arethuza wrote: post #30
Liesmith wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article it applies to all the schools that take government money.

Which government though - we have three parts of the UK with different levels of devolution: - The Northern Ireland Executive - Welsh Government - Scottish Government [NB I was careful to get the name of the institutions correct - the Welsh and Scottish bodies are styled "governments"] Edit: Mind you - I rather wish it did apply here in Scotland!

I doubt this will extend to the North of Ireland. We have a disproportionately large evangelical Christian contingent that extends to the (current) largest party in the Executive, which would aim to block it. The education ministry is held by Sinn Féin, though, who would pass it.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#37

Post by daemonk »

philcoders wrote: post #25
daemonk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a bioinformatician with a background in genetics. The argument against evolution in the article, mainly the piltdown man hoax and new sequencing data on neanderthal is extremely weak. I don't think a single example of scientific fraud is enough to discredit the entire community. I actually think the fact that the fraud was found out as a hoax shows that evidence is constantly being scrutinized and re-examined; w…

"The rest of the article dealt with interpreting biblical statements to fit the current undeniable understanding of the universe.", (How do i correctly put a quote here in the replies?) In Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth… This is written before any scientist can confirm it. Thats not interpretation, its a clearly stated fact, "circle". And he points out if other religion gets it wrong.

Yes, you can interpret circle as spherical if you wanted to. You can also interpret circle as a circular disk. Was it against all conventional wisdom at the time of this writing to hold a circular view of the world? Were there no other culture that thought the world was circular? I am no anthropologist so I can't comment on that last question.

This is just another example of vague statements.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#38

Post by Liesmith »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #31
Liesmith wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article it applies to all the schools that take government money.

It does say that, but news organisations are notoriously poor at articulating the constitutional situation in the UK. In this case, for example, the move has no effect on Scotland - the education system there is totally devolved, and AFAIK there's no concept of the "free school" or academy model which has been introduced in England and Wales. I'm not sure about the situation in Northern Ireland. The Scottish Secular…

Huh. I didn't know any of that. Sorry for my dismissive reply.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#39

Post by jwdunne »

codeulike wrote: post #4

I very much doubt there were any UK schools teaching it anyway, hence this news is not really news this side of the pond. (Context for those in the US)

I went to a catholic school and we were still taught evolution, the Big Bang theory, etc. Even had compulsory religious education lessons (sane number per week as maths, english, science) and accompanying GCSE in Catholic Christianity and we were still taught evolution.

Many teachers even said that the Old Testament shouldn't be taken literally!

It's quite rare I think and I'm surprised there are schools still teaching it.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#40

Post by flavor8 »

tptacek wrote: post #11
codeulike wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well OK it seems there are a handful, e.g http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/nov/30/... ... but I just wanted to highlight that the situation in the UK is generally very different to the USA.

It's unlawful to teach religion in public schools in the US.

And yet http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...
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