Live data from Hacker News

The Open-office Trap

m.newyorker.com

31–40 of 161 posts

Re: The Open-office Trap

#31
post #14

What's funny is that I actually have no idea what a non-open office would look like. I've worked for 15 years and have never even walked in an office that wasn't open. How do you give each person an office without using like 5x the space as a cubicle farm? That's the real reason that companies like open offices - because they can jam a lot more people in the same space. Someone who is ok with a 6x6 cubicle would feel…

Four employees in one 10x10 office works pretty well if you flex time and remote work so heavily that for all intents and purposes its a private office most of the time. In theory all four people might be sitting in there around lunchtime or adjacent to staff meeting time, but not most of the time.

That is 100 sq ft per 4 employees whereas giving each employee a tiny 6x6 cube (although I live in a 8x8) would be 144 sq ft per 4 employees, so if you go with offices you actually use less space than cubicles and if you are flex timing it the employees feel it is much more spacious.

I currently work in a team of 4 flex timers each with 8x8 cubes, in a sea of cubes, and I'd much rather have a nice 10x10 with a door for the 4 of us. We'd save a huge amount of real estate this way and get more work done.

You can of course fit far more than 4 employees in a 10x10 office if you ultra-flex time it. More than two decades ago I was baby sitting a large IBM financial mainframe network (SDLC, source route bridging, that kind of thing) and we had like ten people assigned to a 10x10 but due to 24x5 coverage, not to mention remote work, we never had more than two people in the office at a time.

I've never in my life so far, worked a job where everyone works precisely 9-5 M-F so I can see where non-flex time lifestyles might be more difficult. I would have a serious problem tolerating rush hour driving twice a day, five times a week, but thats another matter.

Re: The Open-office Trap

#32
Backdoor age and disability discrimination.

At some point, when an organization loses the purpose for its existence and selecting leadership comes down to office politics alone, the selection process becomes attrition. Since excellence no longer matters (there isn't real work for a person to excel at) the leaders are selected by subjecting people to artificial stresses and seeing who cracks (either a full-scale nervous breakdown, or just a passive loss of interest) first. Those were the weak, the less dedicated, etc.

Open-plan offices make that attrition faster, and provide more insight into who is next to crack up and entertain the crowd with an open-plan-induced panic attack.

That's also why this toxic micromanagement, in the name of "Agile" or "Scrum", that programmers are subjected to will probably never go away. When there's no good way to pick leaders (because the work isn't challenging or interesting) the stress of being watched, hour by hour, is a powerful attritive tool.

Re: The Open-office Trap

#33
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So go hang out in other people's offices to regain that experience. Back when I worked in offices I'd do that or have coworkers do that all the time.

The once mandatory "visitors chair" in every workspace and most people had two or three. Folks younger than a certain age miss out knowing the social etiquette relating to visitors chairs, such as stacking "stuff" or coats on your visitor chair is anti-social and very strongly frowned upon. Also it was socially acceptable, standard even, to simply walk into someone's cube and sit down in their (visitor) chair and wai…

I don't think its a generational thing so much as a self inflicted culture thing. I was in college in the mid/late 00s and being social/collaborating never suffered for us having offices (two grads to a lab/office usually). We used computer labs or the common areas instead of conference rooms but same same.

That said in addition to a mandatory visitors chair, white boards everywhere. Just fucking everywhere. Nothing seemed to help collaboration like being able to start water cooler level talk about a problem and with out even noticing transition to hashing it out on a whiteboard.

Re: The Open-office Trap

#34
post #4

We've just moved into our first place where everyone has a private office. It's absolutely amazing! I had been complaining for years about open-plan offices [1], but I was actually surprised at just how much more productive it is to have a door that closes! [1] http://blog.circleci.com/silence-is-for-the-weak/

I've personally had the opposite experience. I'm far more productive in a team environment. In video games my most product times are when an artist and/or designer and I sit together and work together. Even when we are not directly interacting with each other seeing stuff on each other's screens lets us see what each other is working on and communicate early and often. I understand that some people in certain roles w…

Those are shared/team offices, not open offices. And I agree: it has been the most effective configuration I've worked in. I used to work in an environment with 4-5 people per (large) office. It worked out really well, and we'd reconfigure the seating arrangement as needed. Where I'm at now the entire building only has three private offices, the rest are completely open. Those type of spontaneous, collaborative discussions are helpful, but tend to piss off the other ~10 people within earshot more often than not.

Re: The Open-office Trap

#35
Why stop at having an office merely "open"? Hot desking is the new thing - it's nothing to do with cost saving, it's all about "flexibility". Except that your organisation might also have a policy against working from home. There's no implicit message that you are simply a replaceable functional unit, not at all. You might even find there's no desk left when you arrive at work - who doesn't love the suspense of arriving for an oversold airplane? Now you can have that at work every single day!

Truly modern offices have hot desks AND are wired for teleconferencing - right in the open areas! That's right, if "open" is good for communication then a 60" screen on the wall with video cameras pointing at you is even better! You can share in the dull roar of collaboration with people on other continents ALL DAY! In the average open space you can fit at least two, maybe three such screens. When you have them installed, get the tradesmen to come during office hours. It costs way more if they come after hours and your employees should get the chance to see drills, saws and nailguns operated by professionals, they may learn something.

We all know there's nothing that stimulates productivity like the sound of productivity, right? So when you plan your next office, leave the kitchen open too - the scrape of chairs on the tiles, the sound of the dishwasher being unloaded, the happy PING of the microwave - not to mention the aromas of hot food - all these things will make employees feel right at home. Using only the most modern materials in the office - lots of glass and steel - will ensure the entire workforce shares the joy. You don't want to be damping the precious sound waves with carpet or plasterboard.

I wish I was joking.

Re: The Open-office Trap

#36
post #5

Open-plan offices are a cost-effective panopticon: cheap, effective way to ensure that not only the boss, but other co-workers are aware of where you are and -- more or less -- what you're doing. The "other co-workers" bit is crucial because even if the boss can't find Dave himself he can ask anyone in the space "hey, have you seen Dave" and be led to a meaningful answer. Companies will get rid of open-plan offices w…

First, the answer to "Hey, Have you seen Dave?" should be "In his cubicle/office". If a coworker (or worse yet, the boss) does not know this, then there is a different problem. But yes, it does work well for management-by-surveillance. Whether that's a good thing is yet another different problem. Second, not all readers of HN are American. Nor do they subscribe to the same political/ethical/social beliefs. The articl…

There is tangentially a correct aspect to it, in that playing geolocation and SPOF games are non-productive so they fit well with an open office.

If you need to talk to Dave, first of all Dave being a SPOF is a bug or management failure to be worked around. Secondly geolocating Dave is almost certainly non-productive. If you need to converse with Dave you call/text his phone to maximize productivity.

This is an insightful observation about the core values of open office vs alternatives... an open office simply isn't interested in productive activity. Its interested in non-productive activity, which has been proven over and over in scientific studies.

Its unpleasant, perhaps even inhumane for a large segment of the population, and unproductive for everyone but in a cause and effect relationship the bug is in the core values of the organization, that productivity doesn't matter. Its not that they don't know its non-productive, its that they don't care that its non-productive.

Also note you can't fix that core value epic fail by merely generating a new, technically superior architectural fad. You merely end up with an organization that's non-productive that has really nice private offices.

In that way its kind of like a HOA... I don't want the weirdos and dirtbags to be hidden, I want to be able to glance at a companies office and tell instantly if they have screwed up values, so in a weird way I want failing companies to implement open offices, so I can identify them and avoid them.

Re: The Open-office Trap

#37
post #7

I am ok with open-office if company provides paid sick leave. In Ireland there is at least one week every year, when 70% of company is at home with flu.

Would you really trade your health, physical and mentally for paid sick leave?

I rarely get sick, but then again we're seven people in one office and only one have kids ( kids makes a difference ). Mentally it's different story. I can't begin to count the number of days where I get home stressed out due to the noise of my co-workers and people going in an out of the room to talk to one of my colleagues.

Maybe I'm just special, but for me to completely focus and do my best work, I need an almost eerie silence. That's doesn't mix well with co-workers talking on the phone or a radio playing.

Open offices have been known to be a bad idea since Peopleware, but they are just so cheap to build.

Re: The Open-office Trap

#38

Why stop at having an office merely "open"? Hot desking is the new thing - it's nothing to do with cost saving, it's all about "flexibility". Except that your organisation might also have a policy against working from home. There's no implicit message that you are simply a replaceable functional unit, not at all. You might even find there's no desk left when you arrive at work - who doesn't love the suspense of arriv…

I got a bit stressed out just by reading that.

Re: The Open-office Trap

#39
post #4

We've just moved into our first place where everyone has a private office. It's absolutely amazing! I had been complaining for years about open-plan offices [1], but I was actually surprised at just how much more productive it is to have a door that closes! [1] http://blog.circleci.com/silence-is-for-the-weak/

There's one environment in which an open-plan office makes sense: a trading desk. (I was a trader for a year.) That's because 5 seconds means a lot on the markets. If millions of dollars can be lost per second, you can't afford the Bell Labs culture.

However, on-the-desk quants and IT are genuinely respected for their sacrifice. Sure, they have to be highly available from 9:20 to 4:10, but the rest of the time is completely their own (usually for research; they tend to work 11-hour days not because anyone is making them, but because they love the work). They're paid very well for that intense 7 hours, and no one would subject them to the humiliation of "Agile" micromanagement. Quants have traders come by to ask about trading strategies at high levels, but they don't deal with PMs and "story points" and arguments about whether what they worked on over the past week was "in the backlog" or not. Quants have something much closer to an open allocation environment than most software engineers, and if they can't hack the stress (and not everyone can, especially for years on end) of being on the desk, they're usually moved to off-the-desk roles and the change isn't stigmatized.

(Some will come in and say that quants are second-class citizens in hedge funds and, if one looks at 95th-percentile compensation, that appears to be true. Quants hit a ceiling around $500k-1.5M, which is 1% of what the best traders make, but they're respected. On the other hand, non-managing programmers are third-class citizens in most Valley startups, and they aren't making any money either.)

Open-plan offices make sense on trading desks, just as "Agile" makes sense for a small consulting firm on the make-or-break project that'll take it into the big leagues (under which it's reasonable to ask the tech staff to truly "sprint", because delivering the project will result in a quantum leap in client relations, quality of work, and compensation). The problem is that management tends to take these processes that conditionally result in high performance (for a short while) and attempt to implement the costly, negative and painful aspects (e.g. open-plan offices and Scrum) while failing to deliver the upside (e.g. quant-level bonuses, genuine equity rather than 0.05% bullshit) that makes talented people willing to tolerate the pain.

Re: The Open-office Trap

#40
post #14

What's funny is that I actually have no idea what a non-open office would look like. I've worked for 15 years and have never even walked in an office that wasn't open. How do you give each person an office without using like 5x the space as a cubicle farm? That's the real reason that companies like open offices - because they can jam a lot more people in the same space. Someone who is ok with a 6x6 cubicle would feel…

The fully loaded cost of IT people is $50-75/hr.

I worked in office space in NYC a few years ago that was $80/sqft. 6x6 cube is $3k/year. Using your assumption that an office is 5x bigger (not sure if that's accurate or not), you're looking at around $15k/year for an office.

So the delta is $12k/year, equivalent to 160-240 hours/year or 8-16% of a salary. IMO, with many developers you'll regain productivity far in excess of that by shelling out for an office.

The reasons companies eschew offices has more to do with taxes and lack of giving a hoot than cost.

Post reply on HN