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John Dee and the occult in California

theparisreview.org

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Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#31

Post by anigbrowl »

kefka wrote: post #15
h1karu wrote: post #3

What does this have to do with technology or "hackers" ? Real wizards code in Lisp.

The history of Queen Elizabeth's court astrologer, John Dee is a very interesting chap. He was well versed in Western Astrology, as well as the joint creator of a symbolic magic called Enochian Magic. He was also considered as Elizabeth's spy. For what there is in the occult, I really am surprised that more technologically minded people don't dabble. Things like Chaos Magic and the like are well suited for applying s…

There's a british writer called Lionel Snell who has made a number of interesting observations on the philosophical problems and discussed them in relation to art, anarchy, political institutions etc.

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#32

Post by dang »

h1karu wrote: post #17
kefka wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The history of Queen Elizabeth's court astrologer, John Dee is a very interesting chap. He was well versed in Western Astrology, as well as the joint creator of a symbolic magic called Enochian Magic. He was also considered as Elizabeth's spy. For what there is in the occult, I really am surprised that more technologically minded people don't dabble. Things like Chaos Magic and the like are well suited for applying s…

I suppose what I mean is that I don't think it's fair that fundamentalist christians don't get to post on HN about how they have a savior who performs miracles but yet it's relatively socially acceptable to have posts about "Magic" which is a reference to the same type of thing as miracles but yet it's considered "esoteric" instead of "religious" and is therefor socially acceptable. I mean lets not forget that with t…

The history of religion is not religion, the history of magic is not magic, and to study a thing is not to advocate it. There is no issue here. Please stop.

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#33

Post by benbreen »

anigbrowl wrote: post #30
benbreen wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the PhD candidate in question, I would have to agree that it is rambling - but I hope you wait to read my actual dissertation before judging my scholarly output as a whole! I should also add that I have no connection to the O.T.O. or any similar group (and speaking frankly, I find all such contemporary occult groups to be faintly silly). But I do think their intellectual genealogy is super interesting.

It's a great subject, which I think is why I was so disappointed in the article. I was looking forward to a few thousand words on the odd modern history of alchemy and its continuing allure, but I really feel you tried to pour a quart into a pint pot here. I would be delighted to read a scholarly dissertation on this or a tangentially related topic.

My dissertation is actually about the origins of the drug trade, but I think you'd be interested in the journalist George Pendle's Parsons biography, Strange Angel, which I think does a great job of teasing out what alchemy meant for 1940s practitioners: http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Angel-Otherworldly-Scientist-W...

I also touch on the topic a bit (albeit from the perspective of the history of medicine) in the Aeon article that I link to further down in the comments, although that's also aimed at more of a popular audience. Another person who you might find interesting is Pamela H. Smith of Columbia University, who's actually recreating an early modern alchemical lab there as we speak.

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#34

Post by anigbrowl »

benbreen wrote: post #33
anigbrowl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a great subject, which I think is why I was so disappointed in the article. I was looking forward to a few thousand words on the odd modern history of alchemy and its continuing allure, but I really feel you tried to pour a quart into a pint pot here. I would be delighted to read a scholarly dissertation on this or a tangentially related topic.

My dissertation is actually about the origins of the drug trade, but I think you'd be interested in the journalist George Pendle's Parsons biography, Strange Angel, which I think does a great job of teasing out what alchemy meant for 1940s practitioners: http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Angel-Otherworldly-Scientist-W... I also touch on the topic a bit (albeit from the perspective of the history of medicine) in the Aeon…

Thanks, I will look into Pamela Smith's work - I was already familiar with George Parsons, and in fact there was an interesting thread on here about that a few weeks ago.

Your dissertation sounds just as interesting, I'd like to read it when it's done. I'm going to read your Perspecties article on it this evening.

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#35

Post by walterbell »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #9

So that's the Dee from cstross's quote: " for iterator count from zero to number of entropy sinks within ground state, hear ye, hear ye, I open the gates of starry time for ye that you may feel the ground beneath your feet and the air upon your skin; I invoke the method of Dee and the constructor of Pthagn, forever exit and collect all the garbage, amen. " (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fuller_Memorandum )

Like Bob Howard, Dee knew a bit about math & hiding secrets a.k.a. crypto.

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/tech_journals/john_dee...

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#37

Post by benbreen »

Alex3917 wrote: post #36

> Dimethyltryptamine [is] the reason people lick the backs of Mexican toads to get high. Not correct, Colorado river toads have 5-MeO-DMT, not DMT. Confusing the two could easily be deadly.

Very true, and licking the toads can also deliver cardiotoxins (people who really, really want to harvest the 5-MeO-DMT from them apparently "milk" their glands and then smoke it, which sounds like more trouble than it's worth). Sorry for the mistake on my part - I should have looked into that one more.

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#38

Post by ianstallings »

lotsofmangos wrote: post #28
ianstallings wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Magic and science do not mix. That's why I don't dabble or anything else.

Tell that to Newton. There is a fine line separating the various realms of the unknown and inventors are merely the most successful of the insane as they have made flesh of their delusions.

This is hardly Newton we're talking about or the unknown appearing as magic as Asimov pointed out all new technology might appear. No this is doing spells and trying to call on mystical powers. And where I'm from, that's called bullshit. If you want to practice science then do so. But don't pretend doing a spell led to a certain result because you "believe".

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#39

Post by ianstallings »

nwatson wrote: post #24
h1karu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose what I mean is that I don't think it's fair that fundamentalist christians don't get to post on HN about how they have a savior who performs miracles but yet it's relatively socially acceptable to have posts about "Magic" which is a reference to the same type of thing as miracles but yet it's considered "esoteric" instead of "religious" and is therefor socially acceptable. I mean lets not forget that with t…

Fundamentalist Christians are still seen in the U.S. as the "oppressing majority" that want to impose their belief system on others or want at least to make others feel bad for not adhering to their beliefs or not conforming to their moral code. This view is outdated. The Evangelical+Fundamentalist Christians had their latest political and cultural heyday in the 1980's with the "Moral Majority" movement. They've been…

Doing any form of magic is political suicide in mainstream politics. You might win a spot here and there but you will never have any pull in this country if you practice magic.

Re: John Dee and the occult in California

#40

Post by tptacek »

dang wrote: post #12
h1karu wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is posting this article any different than handing out a thinly disguised pamphlet for a religious organization ? If someone were posting material here about how some people in California are into "accepting jesus as their personal savior" I would find it every bit as boring and off-topic

This is a historical sketch. Pretty sure the author isn't trying to convert followers for John Dee, Alastair Crowley, or L. Ron Hubbard. (The Hubbard-Parsons-Crowley link is fascinating, btw. Who knew?) It's pretty rare that someone would be interested in all 30 items on the front page, so if complaining about personal boredom were the thing to do, it would quickly dwarf everything else on the site. Therefore it's no…

If that's interesting to you, check out _Going Clear_, by Lawrence Wright, who also wrote _The Looming Tower_, which is also an excellent book.
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