Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World • Hacker News Board

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#31

Post by jacquesm » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:06 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #26

jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

If only nobody anywhere in the world was trained to kill other people, our country (and yours) wouldn't need to ask people to sacrifice that part of their humanity in service to their countrymen. You might read Marlantes _What It Is Like To Go To War_. You might find that while SEALs are happy to speak proudly what they've learned in basic training, not so many of them speak happily about what war forces them to do d…

As a conscientious objector I've done plenty of thinking on the subject. My personal stance on this is that I and nobody else determines where and when the line into violence is crossed and that I will not let others determine what my hands are used for when it comes to matters of life and death.

Words like 'sacrifice', 'pride' and so on try to put glory where there is none. Navy seals and their various colleagues from other countries should be a means of last resort (just like armies), unfortunately they find themselves (ab)used as blunt instruments of offence rather than as a way to defend their homelands.

I know a couple of vets, and if there is one thing they collectively agree on then it was that they were used. That's not going to happen to me, I won't let it.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#32

Post by jqm » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:06 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #27

jqm wrote: post #22

So, how is all this going to help these guys beat the inevitably emerging robot army? The robot army will be more tenacious, more disciplined, more reliable, more obedient... in short, it will have all the qualities mentioned at a much higher level... Trying to install habits in men to the point they become machines is futile because... we have machines. And machines are controlled by conscious entities. Want to impr…

The robot army will probably be more predictable. Tease them, lure them into a trap - boom. Watch them for a while and learn their patterns. Same as with non-robot troops. So, make them unpredictable? Their efficiency drops, they become less useful for ordinary operations. You can't win. Except by doing what the Army does - they have regular soldiers, and they have Special Forces who's mandate is to do whatever it ta…

Is there a computer, right now, that can beat any human alive at chess?

I don't know what robotics will do. My point is larger than specifics. And, the point is.... machine like thinking will always be better done by machines. So, developing better machine like thinking in their heads isn't the way forward for humans. It's a futile battle... kind of like John Henry and the steam drill. Sure, being a big strong guy who could hammer railroad stakes all day was a valuable quality.... at one time. Before steam drills. Now, its simply a sideshow in a circus or a personal hobby.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#33

Post by jacquesm » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:08 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #29

jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

Good sentiment, but 'bravery' is not the right word. Those refusing to participate are not really risking much, certainly not their lives (or being captured and tortured for instance). So pretty much different. But considering the world we live in, I'd much rather have Seals on my side. Properly trained ones.

It would be great if special forces like the Navy seals would only be deployed on missions of an ethically defensible nature. Unfortunately that is not the case. It's a real pity because I'm very much under the impression that most people that enter the services do so from the best of intentions.

'Your' side could easily be the bad guys by some objective standards and that is where the problem lies. If only it would be as simple as saying that 'our' side was always right.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#34

Post by jqm » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:08 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #28

jqm wrote: post #22

So, how is all this going to help these guys beat the inevitably emerging robot army? The robot army will be more tenacious, more disciplined, more reliable, more obedient... in short, it will have all the qualities mentioned at a much higher level... Trying to install habits in men to the point they become machines is futile because... we have machines. And machines are controlled by conscious entities. Want to impr…

The drill instructors are proud to see us growing beyond their control. The Marine Corps does not want robots. The Marine Corps wants killers. The Marine Corps wants to build indestructible men. Men without fear. -- Full Metal Jacket

"The marine corps wants killers"...

Well, that's a bit of an issue morally, however, if you want a REAL killer... get a machine. Those little flesh killers are puny and ineffective.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#35

Post by jqm » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:10 PM UTC

Nrsolis wrote: post #25

jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

This is a horribly naive viewpoint. You've fallen into the trap of making a judgement of someone based on a popular understanding of a particular profession rather than any factual reality. And here are the facts: 1. There is evil in the world. 2. That evil sometimes hurts innocent people. 3. We need some way of protecting innocent people from evil. I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidn…

"I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidnapping of several hundred girls from a school."

Yes. In Nigeria which is what... like the 5'th largest oil exporter in the world? So who funds these problems that then have to be solved by military invasion? I'm always suspicious.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#36

Post by Bahamut » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:11 PM UTC

Many of these same values are instilled in the Marine Corps, although not with as much physical intensity as the SEALS (unless you are in MARSOC) - they are good life lessons to absorb.

Regularly, I see examples of people failing to cope with them. A lot of people are enamored with ideas more than action & responsibility (and/or difficulties) associated with them.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#37

Post by icebraining » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:11 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #29

jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

Good sentiment, but 'bravery' is not the right word. Those refusing to participate are not really risking much, certainly not their lives (or being captured and tortured for instance). So pretty much different. But considering the world we live in, I'd much rather have Seals on my side. Properly trained ones.

Good sentiment, but 'bravery' is not the right word. Those refusing to participate are not really risking much, certainly not their lives (or being captured and tortured for instance). So pretty much different.

Well, not here and now, but there were certainly times when that was not true.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#38

Post by sokoloff » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:12 PM UTC

jqm wrote: post #32

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The robot army will probably be more predictable. Tease them, lure them into a trap - boom. Watch them for a while and learn their patterns. Same as with non-robot troops. So, make them unpredictable? Their efficiency drops, they become less useful for ordinary operations. You can't win. Except by doing what the Army does - they have regular soldiers, and they have Special Forces who's mandate is to do whatever it ta…

Is there a computer, right now, that can beat any human alive at chess? I don't know what robotics will do. My point is larger than specifics. And, the point is.... machine like thinking will always be better done by machines. So, developing better machine like thinking in their heads isn't the way forward for humans. It's a futile battle... kind of like John Henry and the steam drill. Sure, being a big strong guy wh…

Is there a computer, right now, that can beat any human alive at Go?

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#39

Post by tptacek » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:12 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #31

tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only nobody anywhere in the world was trained to kill other people, our country (and yours) wouldn't need to ask people to sacrifice that part of their humanity in service to their countrymen. You might read Marlantes _What It Is Like To Go To War_. You might find that while SEALs are happy to speak proudly what they've learned in basic training, not so many of them speak happily about what war forces them to do d…

As a conscientious objector I've done plenty of thinking on the subject. My personal stance on this is that I and nobody else determines where and when the line into violence is crossed and that I will not let others determine what my hands are used for when it comes to matters of life and death. Words like 'sacrifice', 'pride' and so on try to put glory where there is none. Navy seals and their various colleagues fr…

You just took the words "sacrifice" and "pride" out of context and used them to rebut an argument I didn't make. And, obviously, I didn't make an argument that it was wrong to object to service in the military.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#40

Post by jacquesm » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:13 PM UTC

Nrsolis wrote: post #25

jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

This is a horribly naive viewpoint. You've fallen into the trap of making a judgement of someone based on a popular understanding of a particular profession rather than any factual reality. And here are the facts: 1. There is evil in the world. 2. That evil sometimes hurts innocent people. 3. We need some way of protecting innocent people from evil. I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidn…

Is there a Navy Seals action underway to rescue the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram? That's news to me, all I know is there were a few rumors.

The problem is not that navy seals could not be deployed to do good, the problem is that they are just as likely to be deployed to do harm.

Anne Frank has nothing to do with any of this, the dutch army was of no significance whatsoever (but the dutch resistance was).

As for me 'learning a little more', I think you have your mind made up about me. Your simple world with 'evil' and 'good' is not the world I live in. If only it were that simple.