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So You’re Not Desirable

nytimes.com

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Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#31

Post by watwut »

hypron wrote: post #4

>In a related study of approximately 350 heterosexual individuals, we collected these same measures in networks of opposite-sex friends, acquaintances and partners. Among these well-acquainted individuals, consensus on measures of mate value was nearly zero. These are the people who know what authors you like, what you wore for Halloween six years ago and what obscure movie you will quote the next time you all get to…

"Friend zone" means that she is not attracted into the guy. She might respect him, like him, find him pleasant and still not see him as potential romantic partner. She can even find him attractively looking and still not find him as a potential boyfriend. Some boys tend to think it is going to change if they do enough services or help her a lot of whatever. It does not work that way. If you need to work hard on her, then I do not see relationship looking out of it.

It does not mean friendship can not turn into relationship. It can and all my relationships were like that. I would not date somebody I did not knew. I have also seen couples that originally disliked each other and became attracted only after they knew each other. However, it never went to one-sided "he follows her and help her too much" friend zone.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#32

Post by Blackthorn »

greggman wrote: post #12

I'm not sure how this is helpful. I've known I'm personally more attracted to personality than looks. That's not the problem. The problem is it's hard (at least for me) to get the opportunity to be around members of the opposite sex long enough for them to see my "uniqueness" Personal examples. My last job of 5 years had 100 people on my floor only 2 of which were women. My friends are generally all geeks who have no…

What you need to do is go somewhere where women exist. Find extracurricular activities that tend to skew heavily towards women, and see if any such activities interest you!

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#33

Post by Blackthorn »

hypron wrote: post #4

>In a related study of approximately 350 heterosexual individuals, we collected these same measures in networks of opposite-sex friends, acquaintances and partners. Among these well-acquainted individuals, consensus on measures of mate value was nearly zero. These are the people who know what authors you like, what you wore for Halloween six years ago and what obscure movie you will quote the next time you all get to…

What's wrong with the friend zone? See: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2615

(This is a snarky way of saying that friendship is its own reward.)

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#34

Post by ido »

edanm wrote: post #23
greggman wrote: post #12

I'm not sure how this is helpful. I've known I'm personally more attracted to personality than looks. That's not the problem. The problem is it's hard (at least for me) to get the opportunity to be around members of the opposite sex long enough for them to see my "uniqueness" Personal examples. My last job of 5 years had 100 people on my floor only 2 of which were women. My friends are generally all geeks who have no…

Firstly, this is a problem I'm not sure is very common - I'm guessing most people do hang out around members of the opposite sex, at work, with friends, etc. Second, for your specific situation - you say you have a problem. But it's a very solvable one. Find places to hang out with members of the opposite sex. This can be anything from going to specific classes that have women in them and that you also enjoy (e.g. dr…

Any sort of dancing is usually a good option.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#35

Post by HeyImAlex »

Exenith wrote: post #29
rdtsc wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I think the "friend zone" concept reflects the cultural idea that a person (mostly woman) can be persuaded to fall in love with someone if that someone just tries hard enough. It kind of reflect the idea of women as passive objects that have to be "conquered" or "persuaded" by feats of courage, strength, show of wealth or humor. So now it is the fault of the pursuer for not working hard enough or "screwing u…

It's pretty fucking rash to say that an attempt to impress someone is equivalent to objectification and sexism. It might reflect an inability to accept rejection, but I would hardly compare it to subhuman treatment (which is what objectification means -- treating someone without regard to their humanity). I sincerely hope this trend of reducing every male behaviour to sexism strangles itself.

I think you can find objectification at the root of anger and bitterness associated with the friend zone (which is often how I see the term used; the girl "puts you" in the friend zone after all). "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee" does show a disregard for the humanity of the admired; women are allowed to have opinions, and hitting all of the imaginary checkboxes on what make you perfect for her doesn't entitle you to anything.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#36

Post by okasaki »

rdtsc wrote: post #11
hangonhn wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hated the term "friend zone" because I think it's really as simple as you have just described. One person likes the other and the feeling isn't reciprocated. It's unrequited love. The friendship part makes things more painful and complicated but I don't think it has any bearing on why the person isn't attracted to the other.

Exactly. I think the "friend zone" concept reflects the cultural idea that a person (mostly woman) can be persuaded to fall in love with someone if that someone just tries hard enough. It kind of reflect the idea of women as passive objects that have to be "conquered" or "persuaded" by feats of courage, strength, show of wealth or humor. So now it is the fault of the pursuer for not working hard enough or "screwing u…

I don't understand. How can "objects" be persuaded?

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#37

Post by watwut »

Exenith wrote: post #29
rdtsc wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I think the "friend zone" concept reflects the cultural idea that a person (mostly woman) can be persuaded to fall in love with someone if that someone just tries hard enough. It kind of reflect the idea of women as passive objects that have to be "conquered" or "persuaded" by feats of courage, strength, show of wealth or humor. So now it is the fault of the pursuer for not working hard enough or "screwing u…

It's pretty fucking rash to say that an attempt to impress someone is equivalent to objectification and sexism. It might reflect an inability to accept rejection, but I would hardly compare it to subhuman treatment (which is what objectification means -- treating someone without regard to their humanity). I sincerely hope this trend of reducing every male behaviour to sexism strangles itself.

I do not think "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee" shows a disregard for the humanity of the admired.

It is essentially the same as "my essay was so good why cant teacher seeeee" or "my art is so good why cant people seee" or "I run so fast why coach can not pick me" or any other situation where person have a hard time to accept rejection.

You do not make any service to women by seeing sexism every time a guy does not reacts perfectly.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#38

Post by klipt »

HeyImAlex wrote: post #35
Exenith wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty fucking rash to say that an attempt to impress someone is equivalent to objectification and sexism. It might reflect an inability to accept rejection, but I would hardly compare it to subhuman treatment (which is what objectification means -- treating someone without regard to their humanity). I sincerely hope this trend of reducing every male behaviour to sexism strangles itself.

I think you can find objectification at the root of anger and bitterness associated with the friend zone (which is often how I see the term used; the girl "puts you" in the friend zone after all). "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee" does show a disregard for the humanity of the admired; women are allowed to have opinions, and hitting all of the imaginary checkboxes on what make you perfect for her…

> "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee"

Unfortunately this attitude is lionized in Hollywood and popular culture ... with the implication that if you dream hard enough, he/she will see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuNIsY6JdUw

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#39

Post by dubfan »

Blackthorn wrote: post #32
greggman wrote: post #12

I'm not sure how this is helpful. I've known I'm personally more attracted to personality than looks. That's not the problem. The problem is it's hard (at least for me) to get the opportunity to be around members of the opposite sex long enough for them to see my "uniqueness" Personal examples. My last job of 5 years had 100 people on my floor only 2 of which were women. My friends are generally all geeks who have no…

What you need to do is go somewhere where women exist. Find extracurricular activities that tend to skew heavily towards women, and see if any such activities interest you!

I've always thought that women didn't go to extracurricular activities to find dates, and only men do this. I'd like to be told I'm wrong, but my experiences show otherwise. Of course I do live in a west coast city infamous for its gender imbalance and the associated mentalities that go along with that.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#40

Post by lclarkmichalek »

watwut wrote: post #37
Exenith wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty fucking rash to say that an attempt to impress someone is equivalent to objectification and sexism. It might reflect an inability to accept rejection, but I would hardly compare it to subhuman treatment (which is what objectification means -- treating someone without regard to their humanity). I sincerely hope this trend of reducing every male behaviour to sexism strangles itself.

I do not think "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee" shows a disregard for the humanity of the admired. It is essentially the same as "my essay was so good why cant teacher seeeee" or "my art is so good why cant people seee" or "I run so fast why coach can not pick me" or any other situation where person have a hard time to accept rejection. You do not make any service to women by seeing sexism ever…

I believe most people would agree with that view; the negative side of the "friend zone" is from the "I've put so much effort into this girl, why isn't she having sex with me" opinions you sometimes seem espoused on reddit and other similar haunts of the angsty teenage male.
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