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Defending the Open Internet

nytimes.com

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Re: Defending the Open Internet

#31

Post by bandushrew »

rayiner wrote: post #27
bandushrew wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, as much as possible, we dont want ISPs to discriminate against any website, whether it is discrimination based on politics, or commercial interests. I have no care about whether Apple can get its websites shown - Apple can take care of itself. I do care whether I or other entrepreneurs can continue to publish our ideas without suddenly needing to bribe ISPs to not ruin the experience of customers using the s…

But why? I understand the rationale for websites that are political or educational non-profits. They need the public to protect them. But why should the public protect, in the name of Internet Utopianism, for-profit enterprises? Why shouldn't for-profit enterprises fend for themselves?

Because The Internet is not primarily a commercial platform, it is primarily a communications platform.

One absolutely magical aspect of the internet as it is today, is that I can stand up a server - on my desktop, on a VM in the cloud, on a physical server, wherever - and my friends can access it from all over the world. Poor indian farmers with smartphones can use my server to get data about the local market for rubber, rich financiers can use my server to educate themselves about the likely effect of new financial laws, Strip Club workers can access my server and learn about new health risks.

All of that goes away once I need to pay Comcast a bribe to persuade them to provide access to my server for their customers.

This has nothing to do with whatever commercial opportunities the Internet may or may not provide for Big Business, and I really dont care much about those.

In time my little server may start to make a profit, maybe that is my motivation when I begin or maybe not, but regardless of my original motivations The Internet is magical technology that lets people from all over the world communicate.

that is the functionality I care about, and that is the functionality that anti-Net Neutrality laws massively threaten.

Re: Defending the Open Internet

#32

Post by rayiner »

selmnoo wrote: post #30
rayiner wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why? I understand the rationale for websites that are political or educational non-profits. They need the public to protect them. But why should the public protect, in the name of Internet Utopianism, for-profit enterprises? Why shouldn't for-profit enterprises fend for themselves?

> But why? I understand the rationale for websites that are political or educational non-profits. They need the public to protect them. By the way, to what extent? Here's a hypothetical to imagine: there's a next-generation Wikipedia which is all video-based, and is, say, responsible for 100x the bandwidth usage of Netflix. Does it still need to be protected? Secondly, why does it need to be protected? Non-profits st…

Non-profits have less resources with which to protect themselves, and have value to the public that goes beyond their money-making function. Theres not necessarily much money but a lot of value in protecting say dissident speech.

Re: Defending the Open Internet

#33

Post by bandushrew »

selmnoo wrote: post #30
rayiner wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why? I understand the rationale for websites that are political or educational non-profits. They need the public to protect them. But why should the public protect, in the name of Internet Utopianism, for-profit enterprises? Why shouldn't for-profit enterprises fend for themselves?

> But why? I understand the rationale for websites that are political or educational non-profits. They need the public to protect them. By the way, to what extent? Here's a hypothetical to imagine: there's a next-generation Wikipedia which is all video-based, and is, say, responsible for 100x the bandwidth usage of Netflix. Does it still need to be protected? Secondly, why does it need to be protected? Non-profits st…

Please, let us get the framing of the problem right.

Netflix already pays for the bandwidth they consume.

I, as a netflix customer and a customer of Comcast, already pay for the bandwidth that I consume.

Comcast, for some reason I cannot fathom, wants the right to force Netflix to pay additional money for the bandwidth that I, as a paying customer of Comcast, consume on Comcast's network.

Re: Defending the Open Internet

#34

Post by selmnoo »

rayiner wrote: post #32
selmnoo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But why? I understand the rationale for websites that are political or educational non-profits. They need the public to protect them. By the way, to what extent? Here's a hypothetical to imagine: there's a next-generation Wikipedia which is all video-based, and is, say, responsible for 100x the bandwidth usage of Netflix. Does it still need to be protected? Secondly, why does it need to be protected? Non-profits st…

Non-profits have less resources with which to protect themselves, and have value to the public that goes beyond their money-making function. Theres not necessarily much money but a lot of value in protecting say dissident speech.

On the whole, sure, probably non-profits have less resources -- but there are many glaring exceptions. MIT and Harvard are sitting on a shitload of cash, for example. NFL as well. You know that NFL charges customers something like $150 for streaming access for one year? (http://www.nfl.com/watch-nfl-live ) And a lot of people pay for it. Should NFL pay up to Comcast for clogging the tubes football-season, just like Netflix does, even though it's a non-profit?

Re: Defending the Open Internet

#35

Post by SkynetSystems »

KaiserPro wrote: post #12

Arghh. This simply isn't how the internet works. Everyone pays for bandwidth, You all pay an ISP for x amount of bits per second, and y amount of transit. You pay more, for more. Unless you live in the US and you've been fucked by the incumbent monopoly. If you're netflix, you pay a tier 1 carrier for bandwidth. as you get bigger you pay for an CDN. Bigger still, you make your own. (YMMV of course.) to make it super…

You pay more, for more, if it costs more to give you more. In this case it is not costing these internet service providers a single dime to fulfill Netflix's bandwidth. Do you think the same companies would be willing to offer a vastly reduced rate to the millions of older subscribers who only take an internet package to keep in touch with their kids on Facebook and Skype and maybe read some news? No, they won't. They are only interested in increasing costs for everyone, without actually delivering anything more. This is artificial scarcity and extortion, exactly the same thing the mobile companies like Verizon are doing. Prove to us that their networks are currently at maximum capacity and that Netflix's bandwidth is taxing their network beyond that capacity. Less we forget, these companies built their networks with money stolen from tax payers in returned for broken promises.

Re: Defending the Open Internet

#36

Post by rayiner »

bandushrew wrote: post #31
rayiner wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why? I understand the rationale for websites that are political or educational non-profits. They need the public to protect them. But why should the public protect, in the name of Internet Utopianism, for-profit enterprises? Why shouldn't for-profit enterprises fend for themselves?

Because The Internet is not primarily a commercial platform, it is primarily a communications platform. One absolutely magical aspect of the internet as it is today, is that I can stand up a server - on my desktop, on a VM in the cloud, on a physical server, wherever - and my friends can access it from all over the world. Poor indian farmers with smartphones can use my server to get data about the local market for ru…

Why would cable companies have any incentive to demand payment from small entities like that? There is no profit motive in that, just bad publicity. I think its a really contrived argument, and shows exactly what I'm talking about: big money companies are trying to justify laws that favor them by raising totally hypothetical concerns about what companies may do to small entities that have some public interest benefit.

If Comcast et al really try to keep sex workers from getting needed information about health risks, let's address it when it happens with a targeted law. I'm sure it'll be much easier to get public support for such a policy then.

Re: Defending the Open Internet

#37

Post by bandushrew »

rayiner wrote: post #36
bandushrew wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because The Internet is not primarily a commercial platform, it is primarily a communications platform. One absolutely magical aspect of the internet as it is today, is that I can stand up a server - on my desktop, on a VM in the cloud, on a physical server, wherever - and my friends can access it from all over the world. Poor indian farmers with smartphones can use my server to get data about the local market for ru…

Why would cable companies have any incentive to demand payment from small entities like that? There is no profit motive in that, just bad publicity. I think its a really contrived argument, and shows exactly what I'm talking about: big money companies are trying to justify laws that favor them by raising totally hypothetical concerns about what companies may do to small entities that have some public interest benefit…

The health risks for sex workers was purely a hypothetical situation that showed the general class of the problem.

The point of it being a communications platform is that there is an infinite variety of cases of exactly that kind of problem, potentially leading to an infinite variety of 'targeted' laws. Aside from the incredible inefficiency of attempting to deal with them one at a time, practically speaking it is just not going to happen.

Cable companies will not have any incentive to specifically demand payment from small entities like that. They will just degrade the service they provide for everyone, and make special cases for those who pay the appropriate amount of money.

This will massively damage the internet as a communications platform, it will cause huge problems for small content creators who are trying to get a start, and the need to make deals with a wide range of ISPs will crush small businesses, and startup entrepreneurs.

Netflix is a fantastic example of this.

It is, right now, big enough to be able to move largish amounts of money around to solve its delivery problem. A few years ago, it was not, and - this is important - it would never have gotten to the size it is if the anti-NN measures that are being proposed now were taken back then.

Snapchat, WhatsApp, the list goes on for companies that started small, and were able to grow because they did not need to pay ISPs individually to have their content delivered to the ISPs customers.

MineCraft has been responsible for millions of downloads of its product, probably causing Comcast customers to consume thousands of GB of bandwidth from Comcast. At what point would the distributors of MineCraft have needed to pay Comcast a bribe to ensure its bits were delivered without interruption?

You are either being very disingenuous regarding the effect of these measures, or you genuinely do not understand them.

Assuming it is the latter, i suggest you do a little more reading.

Re: Defending the Open Internet

#38

Post by rayiner »

bandushrew wrote: post #37
rayiner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would cable companies have any incentive to demand payment from small entities like that? There is no profit motive in that, just bad publicity. I think its a really contrived argument, and shows exactly what I'm talking about: big money companies are trying to justify laws that favor them by raising totally hypothetical concerns about what companies may do to small entities that have some public interest benefit…

The health risks for sex workers was purely a hypothetical situation that showed the general class of the problem. The point of it being a communications platform is that there is an infinite variety of cases of exactly that kind of problem, potentially leading to an infinite variety of 'targeted' laws. Aside from the incredible inefficiency of attempting to deal with them one at a time, practically speaking it is ju…

You're using very biased language ("bribe"). Its not bribery for a for-profit company to demand payment for other company's who want to reach its users. That the basic premise of Facebook's or LinkedIn's business model after all.

You've clearly picked a side, but why should we? I understand that people on here have an interest in startups succeeding against big companies, but why does that rise to the level of public interest? These are just all for-profit companies hoping to make a bunch of money off consumers.

It should also be noted that content creators naturally have a lot of leverage, because their products are non-fungible. Its content aggregators and distributors that would see the biggest hits to their profit margins.

Re: Defending the Open Internet

#39

Post by bandushrew »

rayiner wrote: post #38
bandushrew wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The health risks for sex workers was purely a hypothetical situation that showed the general class of the problem. The point of it being a communications platform is that there is an infinite variety of cases of exactly that kind of problem, potentially leading to an infinite variety of 'targeted' laws. Aside from the incredible inefficiency of attempting to deal with them one at a time, practically speaking it is ju…

You're using very biased language ("bribe"). Its not bribery for a for-profit company to demand payment for other company's who want to reach its users. That the basic premise of Facebook's or LinkedIn's business model after all. You've clearly picked a side, but why should we? I understand that people on here have an interest in startups succeeding against big companies, but why does that rise to the level of public…

It is successful content creators who have a lot of leverage. Aspiring content creators (and distributors) have none.

"These are just all for-profit companies hoping to make a bunch of money off consumers."

Unfortunately you have completely ignored all discussion of The Internet being a communications platform, and not merely a commercial platform.

Ignoring that point entirely has allowed you to continue making your own point, which is to refute the idea that we should care what happens to a bunch of for profit internet companies.

I agree with your point, FWIW, once once a company reaches the size of a Facebook, or Netflix I don't care what happens to it.

I do care desperately that individuals are able to easily create and distribute content to each other, of any kind.

The Internet as a communications platform that is available to everyone, for everyone, is what is endangered by the proposed anti-NN measures.

Re: Defending the Open Internet

#40

Post by marcosdumay »

majormajor wrote: post #11
vfclists wrote: post #5

The usual and expected hatchet job from a main stream media stalwart. Neglecting the fact the fact digging up the ground to place cable, which is what the customer is actually paying for is entirely different from wiring up interconnects at core exchanges, which costs virtually nothing in comparison. The customer pays the last mile provider to go fetch with the understanding that what they pay covers everything the p…

Does net neutrality fix this issue? If Comcast wants the extra money they're trying to get from Netflix/Level 3/etc, but is politically prohibited from doing so, then can't they still just raise end-user's prices? That would look worse from a Comcast PR perspective, but with no competition—which lets them get away with letting the quality of service degrade—does that really matter? This (especially in terms of Netfli…

Yes, they can just increase end-user's prices. And that's what they should do if their costs are really larger than revenue, as they claim. (What I obviously doubt is true, because they didn't.)

Comcast is trying to block Netflix probably because people are stopping paying for cable TV, not because of costs. Thus thinking about costs and revenue will send you on the wrong avenue.

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