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How A Lawsuit Over Hot Coffee Helped Erode the 7th Amendment

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Re: How A Lawsuit Over Hot Coffee Helped Erode the 7th Amendment

#31

Post by andrewguenther »

andrewtbham wrote: post #18
crusso wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I'm still someone who doesn't get it. Coffee is brewed hot (195 - 205 degrees F), and I personally like it to be freshly brewed as I drink it. As I very carefully sipped my fresh Starbucks coffee today at the mall, I was very conscious of the fact that I had a hot beverage in my hand. If I had accidentally spilled the coffee on myself or others it could have caused some serious burns... who else's fault would…

The downside of cases like this is, if they stand, we end up with cold coffee. We end up with no products or services that have any risks. We all get treated like morons because of liability reasons. And we will have to pay a premium for any product that can be misused. Thankfully, coffee is still served at the same temperatures, and the only change was added a warning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonal…

No, we wouldn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Re: How A Lawsuit Over Hot Coffee Helped Erode the 7th Amendment

#32

Post by ams6110 »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #16
crusso wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I'm still someone who doesn't get it. Coffee is brewed hot (195 - 205 degrees F), and I personally like it to be freshly brewed as I drink it. As I very carefully sipped my fresh Starbucks coffee today at the mall, I was very conscious of the fact that I had a hot beverage in my hand. If I had accidentally spilled the coffee on myself or others it could have caused some serious burns... who else's fault would…

> Coffee is brewed hot (195 - 205 degrees F), and I personally like it to be freshly brewed as I drink it. As I very carefully sipped my fresh Starbucks coffee today at the mall, Starbucks coffee is not served anywhere near that hot. By their corporate guidance, the normal acceptable range of temperature for coffee served to customers is 145-165F. If you poured that in your lap, it would be very unlikely for you to r…

Hm that must be why Starbucks drinks get cold so fast. Or maybe it's the paper cup. McD coffee in an insulated cup is still nicely hot by the time I get to work. When I make tea, or coffee with my Aeropress, I use boiling water right out of the kettle. I agree with GP, coffee should be HOT.

Re: How A Lawsuit Over Hot Coffee Helped Erode the 7th Amendment

#33

Post by travisp »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #16
crusso wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I'm still someone who doesn't get it. Coffee is brewed hot (195 - 205 degrees F), and I personally like it to be freshly brewed as I drink it. As I very carefully sipped my fresh Starbucks coffee today at the mall, I was very conscious of the fact that I had a hot beverage in my hand. If I had accidentally spilled the coffee on myself or others it could have caused some serious burns... who else's fault would…

> Coffee is brewed hot (195 - 205 degrees F), and I personally like it to be freshly brewed as I drink it. As I very carefully sipped my fresh Starbucks coffee today at the mall, Starbucks coffee is not served anywhere near that hot. By their corporate guidance, the normal acceptable range of temperature for coffee served to customers is 145-165F. If you poured that in your lap, it would be very unlikely for you to r…

>Starbucks coffee is not served anywhere near that hot.

True, it's usually not, although it's considered a "hack" to get better coffee to ask for hotter coffee from Starbucks (so that your drink stays warm in the cold and when you are taking your coffee with you): http://www.businessinsider.com/starbucks-drink-extra-hot-201...

The National Coffee Association recommends brewing between 195 and 205 and holding around 180 to 185 if not serving immediately (which it recommends). Source: http://www.ncausa.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=71

Many people who brew coffee at home have coffee that can be as hot as 205F. Fancy fresh pour over coffee from a nice coffeehouse will have just been brewed with water around that temperature.

And it also raises the interesting question of what these places are supposed to do about tea: if they serve you hot water and a tea bag, the water served should be close to boiling if it's herbal or black tea to get a proper extraction.

Either way, it's not quite so simple as "McDonalds was careless".

Re: How A Lawsuit Over Hot Coffee Helped Erode the 7th Amendment

#34

Post by ams6110 »

DanBC wrote: post #11
crusso wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I'm still someone who doesn't get it. Coffee is brewed hot (195 - 205 degrees F), and I personally like it to be freshly brewed as I drink it. As I very carefully sipped my fresh Starbucks coffee today at the mall, I was very conscious of the fact that I had a hot beverage in my hand. If I had accidentally spilled the coffee on myself or others it could have caused some serious burns... who else's fault would…

McDonalds had ignored requests from CDC about correct brew temperature of coffee. They were serving extra hot coffee despite being asked not to, and despite having had several previous accidents where people were injured. She initially asked for her medical costs to be covered. McDonalds declined, so she went to court. Full thickness burns are not a trivial injury. She was at risk of death. Treatment is painful and t…

Most McDonalds use standard commercial Bunn coffee makers. Their coffee is about the same temperature as any other restaurant that uses those.

Re: How A Lawsuit Over Hot Coffee Helped Erode the 7th Amendment

#35

Post by defen »

rdtsc wrote: post #2

If you are interested and have time watch the "Hot Coffee" documentary. It explores this very case and issues related to it. http://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/Hot-Coffee/70167106?trkid=22233... It was interesting to me because I had heard about it, or rather was told about it this lawsuit and what I was told and believed about that case was wrong for the longest time. This film explores how that PR effort started and how…

A discussion of this documentary is a significant portion of the linked post...

Re: How A Lawsuit Over Hot Coffee Helped Erode the 7th Amendment

#36

Post by tzs »

"Tort reform" can seriously screw over people, because the parties that tend to favor tort reform (by which they mean greatly limiting the ability of people to sue and/or the amount they can win if they do sue) also tend to favor limiting government regulation and oversight. That can leave nothing to compensate for the removal of the deterrence factor that the threat of lawsuits provides against bad corporate or professional behavior.

A sad example is provided by Texas. Protection against bad doctors was provided in Texas by three things: the Texas Medical Board, malpractice suits, and hospital managers. The legislature greatly limited the amount patients can win in malpractice suits, and they made it so hospitals cannot be held liable for hiring incompetent doctors unless the plaintiff can prove the hospital knew the doctor was an extreme risk and ignored this--and they made it so the plaintiff usually cannot get access to the documents that would be needed to prove this.

This shifted most of the burden of protecting Texans from bad doctors to the Texas Medical Board, which was not designed for that. It was more designed for licensing and ensuring that doctors keep with standards, not for investigating bad doctors. The Medical Board was not given any more resources to deal with this new and heavy workload, and so bad doctors could practice much longer than they would have been able to before the legislature decided to do their tort reform.

This article on the Dr. Christopher Duntsch case shows who wrong this can go: http://www.texasobserver.org/anatomy-tragedy/

Re: How A Lawsuit Over Hot Coffee Helped Erode the 7th Amendment

#37

Post by joezydeco »

ams6110 wrote: post #34
DanBC wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

McDonalds had ignored requests from CDC about correct brew temperature of coffee. They were serving extra hot coffee despite being asked not to, and despite having had several previous accidents where people were injured. She initially asked for her medical costs to be covered. McDonalds declined, so she went to court. Full thickness burns are not a trivial injury. She was at risk of death. Treatment is painful and t…

Most McDonalds use standard commercial Bunn coffee makers. Their coffee is about the same temperature as any other restaurant that uses those.

Having worked in an actual McDonald's store back in those days, the holding temperatures on the coffee pots were set higher than normal drinking temperature.

The reasoning for this was because people would buy their coffee in the drive-thru or lobby and take it home to drink. The whole concept of actually drinking it in the car was not considered when the holding temps were specified by corporate, not to mention spill-type accidents.

Re: How A Lawsuit Over Hot Coffee Helped Erode the 7th Amendment

#38

Post by hawkharris »

Hot Coffee is an important documentary for all Americans, but parts of it are especially relevant to those of us who work in tech. The movie shows how arbitration clauses, enforced by many telecomm and software companies, threaten our constitutional rights to bring civil charges against the firms. As one expert in the film puts it, we'd be better off to adopt the term tort deform.

Re: How A Lawsuit Over Hot Coffee Helped Erode the 7th Amendment

#39

Post by akira2501 »

crusso wrote: post #6
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #5

I've always (and I mean always; I've long been aware about the real story) thought the comments about the coffee lawsuit were extremely cruel. 'Oh, hot coffee fell on her lap and burned her, and she sued for millions in damages!' - hot coffee at an unreasonably high temperature fell on her lap and gave her third-degree burns . To suggest she was suing over something trivial is horribly disrespectful to a woman who su…

Sorry, I'm still someone who doesn't get it. Coffee is brewed hot (195 - 205 degrees F), and I personally like it to be freshly brewed as I drink it. As I very carefully sipped my fresh Starbucks coffee today at the mall, I was very conscious of the fact that I had a hot beverage in my hand. If I had accidentally spilled the coffee on myself or others it could have caused some serious burns... who else's fault would…

The jury made a number of findings in the case, one of which was that the warning on the cup wasn't large enough nor sufficient enough to convey the dangers of the temperature of coffee that they serve.

I'm sure they also took into consideration that Stella Liebeck originally asked for $20,000 for damages and had tried to negotiate several times before the case went to trial; she clearly went to some length to avoid this.

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