The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease • Hacker News Board

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#31

Post by jacques_chester » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:30 PM UTC

kareemm wrote: post #28

jacques_chester wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That meta-analysis was not based on randomised controlled trials. It was largely based on observational and self-reporting studies, which are notoriously inaccurate. Moreover, it was subject to numerous corrections due to sloppy work by the authors: http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2014/03/scientists-fix-err...

Thanks, hadn't seen this link. I'd like to see the specifics of what the errors are. Agree that observational and self-reporting are inaccurate, though unfortunately they're some of the best data we've got wrt nutrition. Also, looks like there were some random trials in the meta analysis. From your link: "These included trials in which participants were randomly assigned to different diets, as well as observational s…

> Also, looks like there were some random trials in the meta analysis.

There were, but the statistical effect is drowned by the much larger pool of observational/self-reporting studies.

Observational studies are a useful place to find potential leads, but they are nowhere near as reliable as RCTs for many reasons. Observational studies can tell you that the fall in piracy is causing global warming. Short of a randomised controlled trial involving the introduction of pirates or non-pirates at random to 13,000 Earth-like planets, it's hard to know how strongly that relationship holds.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#32

Post by randallsquared » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:39 PM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #25

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same problem I have with the extreme push towards global warming mitigation. Half a century ago we were worried sick about global cooling . Sure, we know more now than we did then. But that is not a valid response: in any decade we know more than in decades before that. Most of the measures for global warming mitigation either directly cause massive economic costs (large taxes, etc, etc, which all end up…

It's not just about coal and oil's effect on global warming, but their effect on human health, too. The faster we move to cleaner technologies, the better. Wouldn't you like the children to grow in a healthier world? The situations are different here. It's not like in 50 years we'll discover that "hey, wait a minute - inhaling coal fumes is actually good for us!" - which is what you're trying to imply with your comme…

"which is what you're trying to imply with your comment."

The grandparent comment said nothing whatsoever about air quality.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#33

Post by jlehman » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:51 PM UTC

I've followed the Paleo diet for over two years now and the health benefits have been great for me (an incidental part of eating tons of meat is getting a good amount of animal-based saturated fat).

After many discussions with many people about what is or is not healthy and a lot of reading, I've come to believe two things:

1. We (scientific and non-scientific community) have no clue what is or is not healthy, and it probably varies from person to person, and

2. The human body is really good at giving indicators as to whether or not it is healthy. With a bit of experimentation (food/exercise) and attention to physical and mental well-being it's not hard to assess one's health.

The difference for me after going Paleo was noticeable after about two weeks -- improved memory, energy, happiness, sleep, lots of other stuff. I've heard similar stories from others that have become vegan, vegetarian, discovered high-FODMAP insensitivity, etc.

Shameless self-promotion: I built http://www.fitsmeapp.com to help find food (currently just recipes) based on arbitrary user-defined "diets". Feedback is always appreciated.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#34

Post by bikamonki » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:55 PM UTC

Have we become stupid to the point that we need the Internet to tell us what to eat? What were we eating for millenia before we invented nutrition experts? Is this article of relevance/interest to HN?

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#35

Post by a8da6b0c91d » Sun, May 04, 2014, 12:00 AM UTC

jlehman wrote: post #33

I've followed the Paleo diet for over two years now and the health benefits have been great for me (an incidental part of eating tons of meat is getting a good amount of animal-based saturated fat). After many discussions with many people about what is or is not healthy and a lot of reading, I've come to believe two things: 1. We (scientific and non-scientific community) have no clue what is or is not healthy, and it…

Going by how you feel in response to diet changes doesn't necessarily work all that great. Eating loads of meat and under consuming sugar and starch, for example, will send catecholamine levels way up. This will have the short term affect of making you feel better. Inflammation will go down and you'll have more energy. This is the same effect that causes people to say they feel good on a fast. But once you clock up a year or two with elevated catecholamines your health will tank from the stress.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#36

Post by newaccountfool » Sun, May 04, 2014, 12:03 AM UTC

jlehman wrote: post #33

I've followed the Paleo diet for over two years now and the health benefits have been great for me (an incidental part of eating tons of meat is getting a good amount of animal-based saturated fat). After many discussions with many people about what is or is not healthy and a lot of reading, I've come to believe two things: 1. We (scientific and non-scientific community) have no clue what is or is not healthy, and it…

Can I ask what you have in your Paleo diet? Because I once witnessed some one mention 'Paleo Cookies' which is completely ridiculous which led me to believe it was a fad die that went along with Crossfit.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#37

Post by TheLoneWolfling » Sun, May 04, 2014, 12:04 AM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #25

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same problem I have with the extreme push towards global warming mitigation. Half a century ago we were worried sick about global cooling . Sure, we know more now than we did then. But that is not a valid response: in any decade we know more than in decades before that. Most of the measures for global warming mitigation either directly cause massive economic costs (large taxes, etc, etc, which all end up…

It's not just about coal and oil's effect on global warming, but their effect on human health, too. The faster we move to cleaner technologies, the better. Wouldn't you like the children to grow in a healthier world? The situations are different here. It's not like in 50 years we'll discover that "hey, wait a minute - inhaling coal fumes is actually good for us!" - which is what you're trying to imply with your comme…

Notice: I did not mention air quality.

Notice: modern scrubbers are rather efficient

Not to mention that coal is one of those things that I am all for us getting rid of. But not to ban other countries from using. Spending 20-30 years bootstrapping themselves to alternative methods very well may be better than building up a massive population base because they couldn't get themselves to the point where birth rates drop.

Not to mention that half of the alternatives to coal have been EPA-d (is that a verb? Now it is) to the point where "dirty" fuels are the best option from a straight economic point of view.

A better example for your comment might be nuclear power. Where a large chunk of the reason behind why nuclear power is not more widely used is public (panicked) response to radiation concerns. Even though burning coal ends up with a larger radiation dose per MWH. Even though the alternative tends to be coal or oil fired power plants. Even though nuclear power (with suitable reprocessing) is the cleanest general-purpose form of power generation we have. (And yes, this includes "green" energy. Solar/wind require rare earth elements / batteries / etc, geothermal is highly regional, hydro causes issues with fish/etc, biomass is sooty, etc)

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#38

Post by newaccountfool » Sun, May 04, 2014, 12:06 AM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #16

base698 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to selling "Healthy" fat free cookies, breads and meats laced with extra sugar? I think the point of all this new research is that you can't take out fat and expect your diet to be healthy--the real story is much more complex. Most educated people would realize eating lowfat cookies still isn't a good habit to have, but society seems to think it's ok.

You're conflating two things. "Eat less saturated fat" means ... eat less saturated fat. Not: eat more of everything else. And that advice is still sound. Calorie for calorie, gram for gram, saturated fat is worse for heart health than polyunsaturated fat. You're blaming the scientists and doctors for being (somewhat wilfully) misunderstood. You might as well blame physicists for plane crashes. After all, they lied t…

"In contrast to current recommendations, this systematic review found no evidence that saturated fat increases the risk of coronary disease, or that polyunsaturated fats have a cardioprotective effect."

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/03March/Pages/Saturated-fats-and...

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#39

Post by anigbrowl » Sun, May 04, 2014, 12:07 AM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #13

IvyMike wrote: post #9

In Greg Egan's story Crystal Nights, one of the characters became rich by making a site called "FoodExcuses.com", where you input what you eat and it gathers all of the scientific literature justifying it as a healthy diet. It's just a throwaway joke in the story but I'm convinced it would absolutely work in real life. http://ttapress.com/553/crystal-nights-by-greg-egan/

Every day I find more evidence that the internet mainly serves to confirm for people what they already believe. Just like I always suspected.

Ha :)

Seriously, this is a worry. When I was younger I thought the Internet would make the scientific method go mainstream, with Usenet and later the web functioning as a sort of intellectual meritocracy.

Note to idealists: expect less and you won't be disappointed.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#40

Post by a8da6b0c91d » Sun, May 04, 2014, 12:08 AM UTC

bikamonki wrote: post #34

Have we become stupid to the point that we need the Internet to tell us what to eat? What were we eating for millenia before we invented nutrition experts? Is this article of relevance/interest to HN?

Diet matters. There are good scientifically informed choices that can reduce your risk of horrible diseases like cancer and alzheimers.

Even in the context of traditional diets there are good ones and bad ones.

Do you want to look like this guy: http://www.kimmacquarrie.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Mash...

Or this guy: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rTRD-USWhSk/UTIwrhmGFcI/AAAAAAAAAT...

They both eat traditional diets, clearly with very different physiological outcomes.