Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress? • Hacker News Board

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#31

Post by bradleyjg » Fri, May 02, 2014, 2:56 PM UTC

gottasayit wrote: post #21

Of course Clapper isn't going to be punished. Holder was held in contempt of Congress for stonewalling on Fast and Furious, but since pursuit of his punishment would require action from an Obama political appointee, nothing will happen. No one went to jail for the Wall Street fiasco. No one was fired for being wrong about WMDs in Iraq. We still don't know anything about Benghazi while some poor sap who published a vi…

Each house of Congress has inherent contempt powers and can jail people, in the Capitol if necessary. They haven't exercised that power since 1934, these days they refer contemptors to the US Attorney for the District of Columbia. The older power still remains though and is on very firm Constitutional grounds (though for a cabinet official there are issues of executive privilege).

More generally it's hard to take Congressional complaints of executive overreaching seriously when Congress refuses to utilize any of the many tools at its disposal.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#32

Post by sanderjd » Fri, May 02, 2014, 2:57 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #27

josho wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, great. I'm very curious. I am honestly very interested to hear what you feel Snowden has done wrong? I had always assumed that for everyone except those with something to lose (e.g. politicians, bureaucrats) that Snowden 's actions were seen in high regard.

> I had always assumed that for everyone except those with something to lose (e.g. politicians, bureaucrats) that Snowden 's actions were seen in high regard. I imagine this is entirely a function of your social circle. The polls conducted this year have been marginally in favor of his prosecution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentary_on_Edward_Snowden's_... . It's a deeply divisive issue for Americans, though it…

Out of curiosity, what do your dad and the other people you mention think about Daniel Ellsberg? His case seems similar, and history seems to have mostly smiled upon his actions. But of course he stayed in the country and stood trial...

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#33

Post by talmand » Fri, May 02, 2014, 2:57 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #22

eli wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think perhaps you've been consuming only media that mirrors your own viewpoint. Many people are upset that Snowden "violated his oath," that he took it upon himself to effectively dismantle programs he disagreed with (even if the program was indeed out of line), and that he fled from the consequences of his actions. If you believe public opinion polling, a majority of Americans don't like what he did and think he s…

Bear in mind another point - believing Snowden needs to stand trial doesn't necessarily presume a belief that he's guilty, or should be punished, either. Americans also tend to believe the justice system works as advertised.

I for one feel he should not be punished under whistleblower laws, but I would be open to a proper trial. I would like to see that discussion in open court, not a secret tribunal where the outcome is only reported by the government doing the prosecution.

Which is why I think he should not return to face trial, because I think there's no way he'll ever get a fair and open trial in the US.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#34

Post by sanderjd » Fri, May 02, 2014, 3:00 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #23

eli wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think perhaps you've been consuming only media that mirrors your own viewpoint. Many people are upset that Snowden "violated his oath," that he took it upon himself to effectively dismantle programs he disagreed with (even if the program was indeed out of line), and that he fled from the consequences of his actions. If you believe public opinion polling, a majority of Americans don't like what he did and think he s…

Fleeing the consequences of his actions is akin to ducking after disagreeing with an irrational person. Right or wrong, they're about to hit you. You don't have to stand there and take it. If he had faced the consequences of his actions, he wouldn't be around right now to continue this discussion.

You don't have to stand there and take it, but sometimes it is better if you do. You don't know that he wouldn't be around right now. I happen to think that he would still be around, but certainly his life would be more difficult. But I also think he'd be more "popular".

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#35

Post by lettergram » Fri, May 02, 2014, 3:04 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #27

josho wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, great. I'm very curious. I am honestly very interested to hear what you feel Snowden has done wrong? I had always assumed that for everyone except those with something to lose (e.g. politicians, bureaucrats) that Snowden 's actions were seen in high regard.

> I had always assumed that for everyone except those with something to lose (e.g. politicians, bureaucrats) that Snowden 's actions were seen in high regard. I imagine this is entirely a function of your social circle. The polls conducted this year have been marginally in favor of his prosecution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentary_on_Edward_Snowden's_... . It's a deeply divisive issue for Americans, though it…

My Dad is the same way, so a few months after first discussing Snowden I decided to write a little satire about living in communist Russia.

It was fairly short, probably 3 pages of dark humor, however he got the point and in now at the very least understands why this is important. I think many Americans (especially those who grew up in the cold war) do not realize how serious this is.

There was a campaign to white wash all the information, NPR, CNN, Fox, they really did not cover the story in a clear cut manner. The fact the government denied everything, and there was an abundance of information shut a lot of people down and out of the conversation.

That being said, every (older - 40+) person I talk to think Snowden was bad, until I ask the question, "Why did we fight the cold war?" You cannot spend decades battling Nazism/Communism only to accept the same practices a decade later. It's pathetic. Often after a clear explanation of what the NSA (or what we know the NSA) actually does, quickly changes their minds.

All they really need is an explanation.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#36

Post by Zigurd » Fri, May 02, 2014, 3:04 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #19

There is some good reporting here by the Washington Post about the circumstances of Clapper's testimony to Congress. Readers here who know my comments know that I'm not fully happy with how Snowden chose to disclose information from inside NSA, and particularly not about his travel to China (Hong Kong) and Russia, but I think Snowden raises a fair point here. There is some genuine difference of opinion among American…

Politics in the security state selects for the kind of politician at the national level who is bought-in to the rightness and necessity of the security state, early in their careers, long before the people choose among them. It doesn't have to be powered by blackmail, assassination, or other exotic methods 99.99% of the time to be effective. It's the water they swim in. They hardly notice.

All the possible "radicalism" ends up at one end of the scale: PRISM, NDAA, and "least untruthful" causing barely a ripple.

The statement "Every national government in the civilized world needs an intelligence-gathering agency that can operate with some degree of operational secrecy." is true, but it's true at every scale. Suppose someone spilled ALL the beans, and the US had to start over in deciding what's secret and what isn't, going forward. How long would it take to accumulate our current trove of secrets, and what does that say about the necessity of most of them?

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#37

Post by MisterWebz » Fri, May 02, 2014, 3:06 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #19

There is some good reporting here by the Washington Post about the circumstances of Clapper's testimony to Congress. Readers here who know my comments know that I'm not fully happy with how Snowden chose to disclose information from inside NSA, and particularly not about his travel to China (Hong Kong) and Russia, but I think Snowden raises a fair point here. There is some genuine difference of opinion among American…

“I salute Sen. Feinstein,” Pelosi said at her weekly news conference of the chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. “I’ll tell you, you take on the intelligence community, you’re a person of courage, and she does not do that lightly. Not without evidence, and when I say evidence, documentation of what it is that she is putting forth.”

Pelosi added that she has always fought for checks and balances on CIA activity and its interactions with Congress: “You don’t fight it without a price because they come after you and they don’t always tell the truth."

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140317/07441526589/nancy-...

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#38

Post by scrrr » Fri, May 02, 2014, 3:06 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #9

hadoukenio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See "Military's 'sock puppet' software creates fake online identities to spread pro-American propaganda": http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-ope...

Also see people actually having an opposing point of view. Not everything has to be parallel construction, false flag operations and conspiracy.

Yeah but come on, it's happening.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#39

Post by higherpurpose » Fri, May 02, 2014, 3:06 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #19

There is some good reporting here by the Washington Post about the circumstances of Clapper's testimony to Congress. Readers here who know my comments know that I'm not fully happy with how Snowden chose to disclose information from inside NSA, and particularly not about his travel to China (Hong Kong) and Russia, but I think Snowden raises a fair point here. There is some genuine difference of opinion among American…

So are you saying the agencies should be "rogue" and completely independent from Congress?

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#40

Post by crunchcaptain » Fri, May 02, 2014, 3:06 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #19

There is some good reporting here by the Washington Post about the circumstances of Clapper's testimony to Congress. Readers here who know my comments know that I'm not fully happy with how Snowden chose to disclose information from inside NSA, and particularly not about his travel to China (Hong Kong) and Russia, but I think Snowden raises a fair point here. There is some genuine difference of opinion among American…

Two things to point out here...

1. Rumors and innuendo are not the same as hard evidence. While some politicians may survive a controversy, in most cases reputation-damaging information has a negative effect on a political career (especially if it's indisputable evidence). "Nobody wants a scandal". Furthermore, what an old enemy might leak to the press is a far cry from what might be uncovered through comprehensive digital surveillance. Having access to raw, captured Internet traffic is a game-changer.

2. If the members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence don't feel that they are getting completely accurate and inclusive information from the NSA, why wouldn't they feel vulnerable? Who could know the truth if the NSA doesn't give straight information to the very people who are supposed to be overseeing their work?