Live data from Hacker News

The Fall of Hacking

news.ycombinator.com

31–40 of 115 posts

Re: The Fall of Hacking

#31
post #27

Sounds like we all grew up and most of us got day jobs. EDIT: That sounds more dismissive than I meant. The post is a great read, I miss the old days too.

Well, it's a combination of that and of the amount of content respective groups generate - hackers don't have self-indulgent blogs, facebook pages, or youtube channels, and they never did. All that might have changed are the population and diversity if the internet population.

Absolutely. The smartest hackers I know don't even have something as self-indulgent as a public web site.

In my experience, hackers have always been the quiet type. Now some loud ones have changed what it means to be a hacker through popularity.

Re: The Fall of Hacking

#32
There is clearly a subset of hackers that is intelligent, thoughtful, logical, motivated, resourceful, and creative. If you go to TechCrunch and read the articles and comments, that subset is either diluted or non-existant. On the other hand, Hacker News is filled with that subset. It's amazing. So while the hacker culture as you describe it may indeed be dying out, I think that the real hacker is thriving, as evidenced through the community here. Let that old hacker culture die out. Let us build a new hacker culture that emphasizes that way of thought. And hope that this way of thought becomes mainstream.

Honestly, for me, increasing the number of Americans (and people elsewhere too) who can think more intelligently would be the holy grail of hacking problems. Can we create more hackers from modern society?

Re: The Fall of Hacking

#33
Hackers have never been visible.

They still aren't. A ton of fantastic hackers just do what they love: hack. They don't write about it or have a blog. I know a bunch of hackers, and none of them flaunt it.

Re: The Fall of Hacking

#34

I agree...but we are still out there. I think one of the problems is that "hacking" / "hacker" has become a synonym for "programmer" / "software engineer". But there are still real hackers out there; like people that sell 0days just to eat and buy new fancy toys and such.

Putting aside the security aspect, I think that the terms hacker and programmer as still disparate. They're separated by structure.

If you still through and design something you're programming - putting a fair amount of thought and structure in it before you hit the editor. Just coding and coding is probably closer to hacking to me - it's a messy art but capable of brilliance.

On the security side of things there seems to be a split between 'white hat' security professionals which includes a few blowhards by all accounts, and 'black hats' who have changed from just mischief to working for nefarious types for money. Supposedly there are still quite a few 'grey hats' who are just about playing around and finding out interesting new things while ignoring the black and white side of things.

Re: The Fall of Hacking

#35

the movie "hackers". that was some good shit. good times, good times.

I'd probably argue that it was "bad shit," good times ;) I know hackers is basically a bad movie, but it does have a special place in my heart. I'm not exactly sure why....

It's the mythos - breaking out hackers as something 'cool' - despite all the dumb hollywood stuff in the movie.

Re: The Fall of Hacking

#36
post #18
post #2

Those people are still out there; you just don't hear as much about Real Hacking as about more accessible, mainstream stuff. Also, get a blog.

I actually have a lot more respect for people who come here and type their heart out in the open for no other reason than bringing in content and sharing their ideas. Getting a blog is lame compared to that. You get a blog to get ads and attention and a following. On the contrary, noname123, came here, created an account, and wrote his/her heart out for nothing. Expecting nothing, wanting nothing except to be honest…

Sxsw is an awesome conference full of startup founders. People who make things.

Re: The Fall of Hacking

#37
Thank you and your liberal arts sensibilities for capturing one perspective of this moment in time - the zeitgeist, if you will. It is good to remember where we came from, better still to know where we are.

The real hackers are still out there and because of the prevalence of the tools of the trade and the complexity of systems compared to 20 years ago, there are 10 times as many of them. Unless you travel to their places and learn their language you won't know they're there. They (generally) don't have blogs.

Re: The Fall of Hacking

#38
post #18
post #2

Those people are still out there; you just don't hear as much about Real Hacking as about more accessible, mainstream stuff. Also, get a blog.

I actually have a lot more respect for people who come here and type their heart out in the open for no other reason than bringing in content and sharing their ideas. Getting a blog is lame compared to that. You get a blog to get ads and attention and a following. On the contrary, noname123, came here, created an account, and wrote his/her heart out for nothing. Expecting nothing, wanting nothing except to be honest…

If you take this perspective, hacking has progressively been dying since 1940. So choosing the prototypical 1990s hacker is quite arbitrary. In the 40s Turing had to make his own electro-mechanical computers from scratch and invent his own statistical techniques. In the 1990s, assembling computers was already vastly simplified. Whereas today you might buy a motherboard with integrated video, audio, and I/O, back then you had separate cards for everything and perhaps a choice of upgrading to 512 kB of L2 cache with a COAST module. In the 1990s you had to worry about IRQs and perhaps roll your own autoexec.bat and config.sys files to make sure you had enough conventional RAM to run your favourite game. This knowledge was much less technical than what our predecessors had to know and I'm sure they were saying the same things about us back then.

The thing is, most of the hackers that lament a bygone era have simply had the tasks they knew well made obsolete. They are upset because they learned tasks and not skills. Nobody cares today if you can roll a kick-ass DOS boot disk unless you were skilled enough to translate that knowledge into, say, fitting OS X Leopard onto a 1 GB USB memory stick.

Re: The Fall of Hacking

#39
It is the hackers who embrace technology a long time before it goes mainstream. Why should I sit in a dark room, with a dialup connection to a BBS (where I can talk to other hackers) when I can access a site like HN and do the same thing, while also not being limited by the inherent capabilities of a BBS???

Also, why should I not have a snazzy job title??? You make it sound as though hackers should be recluses from the society. Also, you seem to be talking of hackers only in the sense that 'hackers are people who break into computers and modify computer programs' - which is just total BS.

A hacker is an extremely curios person. In the 90's buffer overflows and credit card number generators piqued the interest of hackers. Now there are other stuff which do. Besides wouldn't it be really stupid if hackers were stuck in the the 90's??? Who would lead innovation then???

Re: The Fall of Hacking

#40
Hacking is a human activity and as such will follow the same patterns and cultural cycles you would expect.

1. A Space Becomes Wide Open.

2. Legends Are Made Taming The Space.

3. Others Rush In And Establish A Second Tier.

4. Then A Third Tier.

5. Then A Fourth Tier.

6. Then A Fifth Tier.

7. Eventually, A New Crop Decides They Don't Want To be Tier 6 Because They Hate The Output Of Tier 5.

8. A Few Brilliant Minds Focus The General Angst Into "The Better Way" aka "A Space Becomes Wide Open"

GOTO 1;

Good, bad - this is how it has and will always work. Good output is rare and imitated to death over time. Every genre exists because someone did good work in it. Someone, somewhere, once wrote a good country western song. :)

I've been thinking of this in the context of YCombinator. The cost of launching a start up is low with a mix of wise guidance and smart, talented, relentlessly resourceful founders. So the space is wide open. PG and co are taming it and building legend and second tier imitators in the process. This is good. Why? Solely because the work coming out of the companies they fund is good.

The second tier companies are producing good work too. However, there will be a third and then a fourth and eventually the quality will dip. It won't be about building, it'll be about flipping - and flipping will fall in on itself in time.

At that point, either the whole thing becomes a smoking hole in the ground (unlikely) or there will be a reaction against it by the best and brightest. They will accomplish a piece of what PG and co set out to do, but couldn't because their structure didn't inherently support it. The "reaction against" will accomplish it, even though it will itself be flawed in some way and sow the seeds of its eventual demise as it ascends.

I think lamenting a decline is the wrong focus. Do good work yourself. Be the change you want to see, or be the spirit of what you value. So long as you are, it can't die. If it is dying and its outside of you, what was it to you anyway?

Post reply on HN