Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't) • Hacker News Board

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#31

Post by hagbardgroup » Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 3:48 PM UTC

cml wrote: post #29

hagbardgroup wrote: post #23

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I think that Mr. Welch's advice could be read as extremely cynical as well: maybe he's just telling people what they want to hear, which has the added benefit of encouraging (perhaps unwarranted) loyalty in lower-ranking employees. Like a self-serving Socratic "noble lie" for corporate types?

It was not a lie at the time. It worked out just fine. Why do you think he enjoys such an excellent reputation now? Reputation is just an effect of the sum of your interactions with people.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#32

Post by hagbardgroup » Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 3:50 PM UTC

justinmk wrote: post #27

hagbardgroup wrote: post #23

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

> because the US no longer rewards loyalty in either the public or private spheres The comfort of 1950s US was an accident of the WW2 windfall resulting from our happy position as the creditor for most of Europe. Pointing to that accident as a model for future progress is childish.

Sorta. It is too complex an issue to debate in detail on HN without a formal moderator. You are grasping an important part of it.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#33

Post by dpweb » Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 3:51 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #10

It's easier to call out bad and outdated advice (Welch's) than to offer good advice, which the OP doesn't. The problem with Welch's advice is that it's what successful people say , not what they do. You should pay attention to what unsuccessful people say and know (they're the ones who know the organization's true character) but what the successful people do . Take knowledge from the losers, but copy the actions (oft…

Liked your blog post michaelochurch on meritocracy by the way..

I think generally people are not seeing the problem correctly.

There is nothing wrong itself with over-delivering or being a team player. "Meritocracy" is easily adopted as a concept (especially by smart technical people I would say), because its entirely logical and also happens to appear the "moral" thing. It is. But, it gets distorted quite often and that distortion is called company politics.

Your goal is not to over-deliver in itself or kiss your boss' ass, or emulate powerful people. Those powerful people may have gotten powerful by stabbing backs all over the place - do you really want to emulate that? I would argue maybe money and prestige ranks higher for people then the tranquility in the belief that they themselves are moral people - but tranquility is high up on the list - if you really put it to people.

Don't even listen to career advice by CEOs or your best friend. Your goal is nothing more - than to make yourself valuable.

Your value may or may not get recognized, it depends on your company environment, but I strongly believe this, it will and MUST eventually - even if you have to quit and go find it at another company or start your own, where you will be rightly compensated by the general public.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#34

Post by analog31 » Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 3:57 PM UTC

hagbardgroup wrote: post #31

cml wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I think that Mr. Welch's advice could be read as extremely cynical as well: maybe he's just telling people what they want to hear, which has the added benefit of encouraging (perhaps unwarranted) loyalty in lower-ranking employees. Like a self-serving Socratic "noble lie" for corporate types?

It was not a lie at the time. It worked out just fine. Why do you think he enjoys such an excellent reputation now? Reputation is just an effect of the sum of your interactions with people.

Because he wrote a self congratulatory book that gratified its audience?

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#35

Post by joostdevries » Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 4:00 PM UTC

dpweb wrote: post #25

tejay wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This appears to be an older post, but I think what the original author meant was that hard work alone isn't a sufficient condition for success (I'd argue it is a necessary one, though). The real answer is there probably isn't a sufficient condition for success, but hard work in pursuit of your own goals (rather a manager's) increases the likelihood of a positive outcome. Still, I'd have gone a step further. 'Career'…

"if you're really good at something, it's pretty easy to get paid (a lot) for it." This is only true in technology and because of the current market in tech labor and skills (and powerful people are working hard to change that). It's not true for the musician, or many other passions where the reward has to be the work itself because it's hard to make any kind of living at it.

Devoting energy solely to building a good impression with your boss is a high risk strategy when bosses and companies aren't very loyal. Building an outside reputation as well using work on open source f.i. hedges that risk and increases your negotiation power.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#36

Post by Amezarak » Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 4:04 PM UTC

justinmk wrote: post #27

hagbardgroup wrote: post #23

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

> because the US no longer rewards loyalty in either the public or private spheres The comfort of 1950s US was an accident of the WW2 windfall resulting from our happy position as the creditor for most of Europe. Pointing to that accident as a model for future progress is childish.

Can you explain to me how the federal government being a creditor to European nations after World War II ensured happy times for employee/employer relations? If creditor/debtor status of the federal government makes such a difference, why didn't the massive US federal debt (around 110% of GDP) negate that creditor status? This argument has never made sense to me since a) most European countries had almost fully recovered by the mid-50s, yet this boom lasted much longer, b) our exports (and imports) were way down during the post-war period and basically irrelevant c) the loans were mostly inflated away. I don't understand what mechanism would have had the observed effect.

If anything I'd have thought the wage and price controls from WWII were a bigger factor, since in the absence of higher pay, companies had to offer more benefits and cultivate better relationships with their employees to keep them around - and there seems to have been a lot of inertia from those policies.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#37

Post by DanielBMarkham » Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 4:06 PM UTC

Yeah, after reading about a dozen of these over the years, it's just depressing.

Look at it this way: success in life is 1/3 working hard, 1/3 working smart, and 1/3 being lucky.

You might ditch the first two and get really lucky. Or not. Your best bet is to do all three. Even then, guess what, little snowflake? You're not that special, and you may only have bad luck.

So what? If you're doing something you have passion about, or if you ever grow up enough to learn to create your own passion as you go along, you're going to be doing the first two things anyway. So this isn't about some secret formula to get what you want; this is about just doing something more fulfilling in life than taking up space and seeking to self-stimulate. Might be worthwhile. Who knows?

Yep, the old days of "I'll be loyal to the company and the company will be loyal to me" are gone. But that was just a tiny piece of the big picture. Simply because some of the details shift around doesn't mean the basics have changed that much. Good grief.

ADD: The more I think about this article, the more it bugs me. So the advice is don't try to impress your boss because he won't be around long? How about just trying to be a pleasant, hard-working, reliable person that other people find enjoyable to work with, boss or not? Or do we sulk around wondering why we should do anything at all unless there's something directly in it for us?

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#38

Post by pdonis » Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 4:09 PM UTC

hagbardgroup wrote: post #23

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

> The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse.

It's worse if your goal is to work for one company for your entire career, and take whatever that company can offer you, yes. The new system no longer offers that goal as a realistic option.

However, by not offering that goal as a realistic option, the new system at least forces people to take responsibility for their own careers, instead of expecting someone else--"the company" or whoever--to manage their careers for them. I don't think that's a bad tradeoff, all things considered.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#39

Post by ryandrake » Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 4:14 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #10

It's easier to call out bad and outdated advice (Welch's) than to offer good advice, which the OP doesn't. The problem with Welch's advice is that it's what successful people say , not what they do. You should pay attention to what unsuccessful people say and know (they're the ones who know the organization's true character) but what the successful people do . Take knowledge from the losers, but copy the actions (oft…

Is it really that much of a mystery? Here's how to succeed in tech. Sorry for the cynicism, but it's pretty obvious if you open your eyes and look around the Valley:

1. Have rich, preferably white parents who can get you into Harvard, Stanford, Yale, etc.

2. Found a company that does whatever (it doesn't really matter as long as it involves whatever's hot in technology in some way), and use your family/school connections to get funding.

3. IPO or get acquired by SuperUltraMegaCorp.

OR

4. Luck into being employee 2-10 at such a company.

Notice, there's nothing about working hard, impressing your boss, company loyalty, etc. You can find exceptions, but I don't think you can argue against this being a common, almost default formula these days.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#40

Post by zanny » Sat, Apr 12, 2014, 4:14 PM UTC

sarreph wrote: post #2

There's no real alternative offered here. I understand there's a whole 'open' and 'small' world out there and I can learn lessons from my peers, but if I'm not supposed to be 'working hard for my boss' in the modern corporate world, what am I supposed to be doing to 'get there eventually'?

If you work hard for your boss they laugh their way to the bank paying you the same flat salary and pocketing the profits of your labors.

To get there eventually (sadly?) you have to plan to get out from under others siphoning your productivity like that. Because the modern corporate culture has shifted to taking advantage of the best, rather than empowering them. Mostly because there is a surplus of (skilled) labor in most industries. If there wasn't, your boss would be treating you better because you are a scarce resource they don't want to lose because its either expensive or time consuming to replace.

And like the article says, "working hard" isn't invaluable.