Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#31

Post by jnbiche » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:01 AM UTC

chris_mahan wrote: post #18

afhsfsfdsss88 wrote: post #6

As a hacker...Cool! As a driver who will have to occupy space around people playing with this while driving...F#&*!

Agreed. There should be a large warning on the console: "Warning to passengers: The Vehicle Systems have been Compromised. Please do not ride in this vehicle. A Service tow truck has been dispatched." Also, the car should not move.

Wow, as someone who grew up "hacking" on my car (i.e., on the engine) this attitude is pretty amazing. What a dangerous, mysterious thing a car must seem to you.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#32

Post by Gnewt » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:03 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #12

Mister_Snuggles wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. According to the article, the car's network consists of three devices - the centre console, the dashboard, and one unknown device. There's no way that the whole car has only three computers. My guess is that this ethernet network is only for the user interface. I'd also guess that the unknown device serves as a gateway (and, hopefully, a firewall) between the critical systems of the car and the car's…

Firewall? The CAN bus interfacing with the core vehicle components assumes no access controls or anything. Any device connected to it is inherently trustable, no questions asked.

I think the commenter you replied to was inferring that the whole CAN bus was not accessible via the Ethernet network.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#33

Post by mikeash » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:11 AM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #21

mitchellh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, I agree, but the software update mechanism is somehow able to update or interface with that system. If you're able to jailbreak _that_, then its one less barrier in the way of taking over the drive control.

I'm sure only signed updates are allowed. Same as with intel microcode updates and most firmwares. They'd be highly irresponsible if jailbreaking was left possible.

Lots of systems are built to only allow signed updates, but bugs often allow bypassing that. If you can exploit the existing firmware, you can effectively load new ones. That's how iOS jailbreaks work despite Apple's attempt to only allow booting an Apple signed OS.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#34

Post by jamesaguilar » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:12 AM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #21

mitchellh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, I agree, but the software update mechanism is somehow able to update or interface with that system. If you're able to jailbreak _that_, then its one less barrier in the way of taking over the drive control.

I'm sure only signed updates are allowed. Same as with intel microcode updates and most firmwares. They'd be highly irresponsible if jailbreaking was left possible.

Nobody intends jailbreaks to be possible. It's done through exploiting bugs. And saying it'd be highly irresponsible to write a bug is like saying it'd be irresponsible to use the bathroom. It may stink, but everyone does it.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#35

Post by hamiltonkibbe » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:18 AM UTC

jcdavis wrote: post #5

mitchellh wrote: post #3

The cool things: Tesla is running Linux (!) and standard technologies/protocols such as SSH, NFS, X11, HTTP, etc. to do things in the car. That is cool, and probably highly efficient since developer test labs can probably just be basic Ubuntu-like virtual machines. The sketchy things: Jailbreaking a car seems pretty dangerous, especially since as far as I'm aware, the electronic systems control things including the b…

No way is the drive control software is running linux, its almost certainly running on its own embedded system.

Unless someone re-wrote the kernel to be MISRA-compliant...

MISRA Compliance...Coming soon in Ubuntu 149.04 Zany Zealot!!

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#36

Post by catern » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:21 AM UTC

eik3_de wrote: post #30

mschuster91 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you at least have to say where to get the source from if you publish/distribute binaries to others.

but only if their binary is linked against a gpl library..?

They're shipping Linux. There's certainly plenty of GPL binaries in their system.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#37

Post by evv » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:21 AM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #21

mitchellh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, I agree, but the software update mechanism is somehow able to update or interface with that system. If you're able to jailbreak _that_, then its one less barrier in the way of taking over the drive control.

I'm sure only signed updates are allowed. Same as with intel microcode updates and most firmwares. They'd be highly irresponsible if jailbreaking was left possible.

Sure, I agree, but what system checks the signature? A responsible engineering team would have a dedicated piece of hardware for that. For decent security, it would need to physically sit between the untrusted, internet-connected machine and the embedded hardware.

Not to mention that there must be some key floating around Tesla that can be used to completely reprogram any Model S from anywhere.

Its not the first time a company has needed to privately secure a key, but this time there's a lot more at stake. I wonder what the privacy success rate is for companies with highly-sought-after keys like that. Over a long period of time, the chance of a key leak has got to be pretty high.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#38

Post by mschuster91 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:22 AM UTC

eik3_de wrote: post #30

mschuster91 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you at least have to say where to get the source from if you publish/distribute binaries to others.

but only if their binary is linked against a gpl library..?

Nope, it is enough to distribute any binary made with GPL source code to have an obligation to publish the code. As soon as you use GPL code, no matter if you modify it or not, you have to re-distribute the source code you used.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#39

Post by dalke » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:22 AM UTC

taternuts wrote: post #27

dalke wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You started with jailbreaking then transitioned to malicious software update - aren't those two different things? While it's possible that bad software would cause dangerous problems with the car, it's also possible that a bad repair job or bad part will as well. Yet we allow unlicensed mechanics, like the owner of the car, to do things like replace the brakes. While you may not be comfortable jailbreaking your own c…

I'm assuming the critical stuff is pretty walled off, but if I were Tesla I'd be nervous about someone potentially poking around with anything like that because they think they know what they are doing.

Oh, I agree. But wouldn't any existing car company also be worried about aftermarket mods to the car they sold, by people who "think they know what they are doing"? What marks Tesla's cars as significantly special or error-prone?

As important, how do you distinguish between a valid concern about the easy of making a stupid error, vs. designing the system to be more resilient to those sorts of mistakes, vs designing the system so the owner isn't able to modify the car without the manufacturer's permission?

(Eg, Massachusetts has a "Right to Repair" law, which is supposed to reduce the last case.)

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#40

Post by hamiltonkibbe » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:24 AM UTC

dm2 wrote: post #13

Can Tesla detect if settings or the files for one of their cars are modified? I would like an option to contact home base to verify that all files and configurations in my car are exactly like their suppose to be, else either disable the car or download the correct software. Maybe a way to enable a developer mode which can only be used on a non-public road. I just can't imagine modifying an electric vehicles computer…

I could certainly see people modifying cotor controller settings. Changing hard RPM limits, or tuning PID controller gains for extra milliseconds on the track.