Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer

#31

Post by rwmj » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 6:21 AM UTC

jonalmeida wrote: post #29

This is quite confusing after reading Sievers' reply on Google+ (third comment on the post) [1] > my last kernel patch is more than a year old, my last non-trivial kernel patch 2 years old. i stopped working on the upstream kernel "long ago" for reasons i cannot stand the attitude of these guys, i decided to work with grown up or funny, or grown up and funny people instead and i enjoy it a lot more. not sure what thi…

I'm guessing Linus is referring to udev (which is broadly tied to the kernel). For no good reason, udev -- a separate daemon -- was pulled into systemd.

Re: Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer

#32

Post by burntsushi » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 6:24 AM UTC

Workaphobia wrote: post #24

csmattryder wrote: post #5

Systemd is soon to be integrated as the default init daemon for Ubuntu, one of the most user-friendly Linux distributions available. It worries me that Sievers, and the systemd team aren't approaching testing with an almost paranoid attitude. Linux is finally getting a foothold in consumer desktops, it'd be a shame for people to go back to other operating systems purely because "it broke one day, something about syst…

I haven't used linux on a desktop in several years, but my experience was that "it broke many days, something about everything". Why should this one component be held on a pedestal as make-or-break for the whole OS? Is a broken init daemon worse than a broken xorg.conf from a desktop user's perspective?

As you said, you haven't used the Linux desktop in many years. It's come a long way in that time.

For example, editing your xorg.conf is virtually a thing of the past these days. I haven't touched it in years and run a fancy triple monitor setup.

Re: Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer

#33

Post by pjmlp » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 6:28 AM UTC

csmattryder wrote: post #5

Systemd is soon to be integrated as the default init daemon for Ubuntu, one of the most user-friendly Linux distributions available. It worries me that Sievers, and the systemd team aren't approaching testing with an almost paranoid attitude. Linux is finally getting a foothold in consumer desktops, it'd be a shame for people to go back to other operating systems purely because "it broke one day, something about syst…

I still use multiple OS across my laptops.

GNU/Linux support has improved a lot since my first installation in 1995, but it is still hit-and-miss on laptops.

Re: Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer

#34

Post by dkarapetyan » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 6:28 AM UTC

I don't get why there are so many egos in kernel and low-level development circles. I get that it's a bit more challenging than usual application development but the egos seem way too big relative to what's involved.

Re: Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer

#35

Post by na85 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 6:29 AM UTC

e12e wrote: post #15

Oh, the actual bugzilla thread is (if possible) even more depressing: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 I had actually started to warm to the idea of systemd, thinking that it couldn't end up the same clusterf*ck of mismatched reinventions that didn't really solve any problems that pulseaudio was. I guess it's time to move to Debian/kFreeBSD and ignore this crap.

Holy shit I always thought the systemd hate was just change-aversion until I read this.

Ubuntu probably won't because they're user-hostile, but I really hope Debian and the other major distros move away from systemd.

Re: Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer

#36

Post by jafaku » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 6:29 AM UTC

Workaphobia wrote: post #24

csmattryder wrote: post #5

Systemd is soon to be integrated as the default init daemon for Ubuntu, one of the most user-friendly Linux distributions available. It worries me that Sievers, and the systemd team aren't approaching testing with an almost paranoid attitude. Linux is finally getting a foothold in consumer desktops, it'd be a shame for people to go back to other operating systems purely because "it broke one day, something about syst…

I haven't used linux on a desktop in several years, but my experience was that "it broke many days, something about everything". Why should this one component be held on a pedestal as make-or-break for the whole OS? Is a broken init daemon worse than a broken xorg.conf from a desktop user's perspective?

Why not give it another try now then? I have used it for years and, unlike windows, I never had to reinstall it just because something broke. And things only broke when I messed around with them, but it was always fixable. If you also use virtual machines or linux containers you will never break anything.

Re: Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer

#37

Post by mbreese » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 6:29 AM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #25

userbinator wrote: post #7

Although I've heard a lot of others disagree, I like the fact that Linus' posts are straight and to the point. No sugar-coating or euphemisms, just telling the hard reality like it is.

...Is a good way to turn otherwise-skilled people with some problematic but fixable habits into people who refuse to work with you ever again. Brutal honesty works with computers, but it's not always the best policy for keeping humans productive. Linus gets away with it because he's a celebrity, and moreover the right kind of celebrity. These comments would look very different if the public mockery was coming from, s…

He's been this way long before he was a celebrity coder. This is just how he runs Linux, and I think that is evidence enough that the process works for him.

The team itself might be a self-selecting group of people who can work with Linus. But, overall, I'd say that his brutal honesty works "well enough". It might not be a good way to run a corporate project, but for an OS kernel, the benevolent dictator model seems to work pretty well.

I wonder how the kernel groups at Apple and Microsoft work though... or how FreeBSD is organized... that'd be an interesting comparison.

Re: Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer

#38

Post by fauigerzigerk » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 6:36 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #33

csmattryder wrote: post #5

Systemd is soon to be integrated as the default init daemon for Ubuntu, one of the most user-friendly Linux distributions available. It worries me that Sievers, and the systemd team aren't approaching testing with an almost paranoid attitude. Linux is finally getting a foothold in consumer desktops, it'd be a shame for people to go back to other operating systems purely because "it broke one day, something about syst…

I still use multiple OS across my laptops. GNU/Linux support has improved a lot since my first installation in 1995, but it is still hit-and-miss on laptops.

That's exactly my experience as well.

Re: Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer

#39

Post by demallien » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 6:36 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #7

Although I've heard a lot of others disagree, I like the fact that Linus' posts are straight and to the point. No sugar-coating or euphemisms, just telling the hard reality like it is.

I tend to think of Linus as being similar to Steve Jobs - brilliant but arrogant srseholes whose products I enjoy using, but I would never work with them without some very serious compensation for putting up with the shit. Which is where this becomes a problem for Linus. Jobs could hey away with it, because he could pay people enough that they accepted the bad treatment. Linus, not so much.

It's clear that that the kernel dev guys and Kay have a history. I wonder if Kay would have been more open to accepting change requests to systemd without Linus's bad behaviour. It bears thinking about...

Re: Linus will not be merging any code from systemd developer

#40

Post by beedogs » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 6:42 AM UTC

e12e wrote: post #15

Oh, the actual bugzilla thread is (if possible) even more depressing: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76935 I had actually started to warm to the idea of systemd, thinking that it couldn't end up the same clusterf*ck of mismatched reinventions that didn't really solve any problems that pulseaudio was. I guess it's time to move to Debian/kFreeBSD and ignore this crap.

Jesus. This is what happens when a severely narcissistic prima-donna runs a major project. Shocking and arrogant behavior.