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Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm

#31

Post by Blahah »

geuis wrote: post #12

How closely related are the two species. Hybrids between species of horses and cats are common. Same for canines. But it didn't occur to me that wheels and goats are that closely related

Species don't necessarily have to be that closely related to hybridize. Compatibility is usually more complex but sometimes surprisingly more crude (when related simply to chromosome number) than a linear scaling with evolutionary time. Goats and Sheep are both in family Bovidae subfamily Caprinae. The species diverged around 7 million years ago [0]. Intra-familial (but inter-generic) hybrids are fairly well-known (savannah cats, zedonks, etc.).

Much more surprising is that people have reportedly successfully created hybrids [1] between chickens (family Phasianidae) and guinea fowl (family Numididae), which diverged around 50 million years ago [2].

Note that http://timetree.org is a beautiful service for finding out how closely related two species are (in evolutionary time).

[0] http://www.timetree.org/index.php?taxon_a=Ovis+aries&taxon_b...

[1] http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/2592/is-sexual-re...

[2] http://www.timetree.org/index.php?taxon_a=Gallus+gallus&taxo...

Re: Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm

#32

Post by ealloc »

Such a creature is called a "musimones", as I recently learned from reading "Natural Magicks" by Porta, an endearingly incorrect popular science book from 1584. I quote his discussion of these creatures below. The rest of the book is quite amusing.

http://www.mindserpent.com/American_History/books/Porta/jpor...

------------

There is a beast called "Musimones", gendered of a Goat and a Ram. Pliny says, that in Spain, but especially in Corsica, there are beasts called Musimones not much unlike to Sheep, which have Goats hair, but in other parts, Sheep; the young ones which are gendered of them, coupling with Sheep, are called by the Ancients, Umbri. Strabo calls them Musimones. But Albertus calls them Musini or Musimones, which are gendered of a Goat and a Ram. I have heard that in Rhetia, in Helvetian confines, there are generated certain beasts, which are Goats in the hinder parts, but in the former parts, Sheep or Rams; but they cannot live long, but commonly they die, as soon as they are born. And that there the Rams being grown in years, are very strong and lustful, and so often times meet with Goats, do run over them, and that the young ones which wild Rams beget of tame Sheep, are color like the sire, and so is their breed after them; and the wool of the first breed is shaggy, but in their after-breed soft and tender.

Re: Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm

#34

Post by orky56 »

Revex wrote: post #2

While I find this fascinating, it does seem a bit curious to post this in a hacker forum. I was half way expecting to read that the farmer had been "bio-hacking" trying to come up with a healthy hybrid.

Many discoveries were based on unintentional or natural accidents. One could calls these hacks since they broke the conventional "usage pattern." Not necessarily for this case but in situations like these.

Re: Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm

#35

Post by Noishe »

giardini wrote: post #25
grey413 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Goat and sheep lineages diverged approximately five to eight million years ago[1]. For reference, human and gorilla lines diverged roughly six to eight million years ago[2]. Also, different breeds of dogs are considered the same species (and likewise with cats). [1] http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/89/44/91/PDF/hal-008... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics#Div...

Humans and gorillas? What about our ancestors and those of pigs? I found this hypothesis fascinating: "A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?" http://phys.org/news/2013-07-chimp-pig-hybrid-humans.html from the article: " I asked McCarthy if he could give a date estimate for the hybridization event, he said that there are a couple broad possibilities: (1) It might be that hybridization between pigs and apes produced th…

There isn't enough attention to this in my opinion. When you research it, everything lines up so nice.

Re: Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm

#36

Post by viraptor »

> the farmer said he was not planning to send the geep for slaughter

I'm ignorant about most things farm-related, but maybe someone knows what rules apply to meat coming from unusual mixes? I assume it's harmless to eat it, but would it be legal to sell?

Re: Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm

#37

Post by Blahah »

ealloc wrote: post #32

Such a creature is called a "musimones", as I recently learned from reading "Natural Magicks" by Porta, an endearingly incorrect popular science book from 1584. I quote his discussion of these creatures below. The rest of the book is quite amusing. http://www.mindserpent.com/American_History/books/Porta/jpor... ------------ There is a beast called "Musimones", gendered of a Goat and a Ram. Pliny says, that in Spain,…

Just a slight correction: the musimones is the inverse sexual partnering - a male sheep and a female goat (as specified in the text you quote). The offspring of the hybrids referred to here as 'umbri' were also written about by Wallace in his book, on the Theory of Natural Selection (expanding on ideas he had at the same time Darwin was coming up with his theory of evolution):

------------

"It has been long known to shepherds, though questioned by naturalists, that the progeny of the cross between the sheep and goat is fertile. Breeds of this mixed race are numerous in the north of Europe." Nothing appears to be known of such hybrids either in Scandinavia or in Italy; but Professor Giglioli of Florence has kindly given me some useful references to works in which they are described. The following extract from his letter is very interesting: "I need not tell you that there being such hybrids is now generally accepted as a fact. Buffon (Supplements, tom. iii. p. 7, 1756) obtained one such hybrid in 1751 and eight in 1752. Sanson (La Culture, vol. vi. p. 372, 1865) mentions a case observed in the Vosges, France. Geoff. St. Hilaire (Hist. Nat. Gén. des reg. org., vol. iii. p. 163) was the first to mention, I believe, that in different parts of South America the ram is more usually crossed with the she-goat than the sheep with the he-goat. The well-known 'pellones' of Chile are produced by the second and third generation of such hybrids (Gay, 'Hist, de Chile,' vol. i. p. 466, Agriculture, 1862). Hybrids bred from goat and sheep are called 'chabin' in French, and 'cabruno' in Spanish. In Chile such hybrids are called 'carneros lanudos'; their breeding inter se appears to be not always successful, and often the original cross has to be recommenced to obtain the proportion of three-eighths of he-goat and five-eighths of sheep, or of three-eighths of ram and five-eighths of she-goat; such being the reputed best hybrids.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Darwinism_by_Alfred_Walla...

Re: Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm

#38

Post by Steuard »

giardini wrote: post #25
grey413 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Goat and sheep lineages diverged approximately five to eight million years ago[1]. For reference, human and gorilla lines diverged roughly six to eight million years ago[2]. Also, different breeds of dogs are considered the same species (and likewise with cats). [1] http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/89/44/91/PDF/hal-008... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics#Div...

Humans and gorillas? What about our ancestors and those of pigs? I found this hypothesis fascinating: "A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?" http://phys.org/news/2013-07-chimp-pig-hybrid-humans.html from the article: " I asked McCarthy if he could give a date estimate for the hybridization event, he said that there are a couple broad possibilities: (1) It might be that hybridization between pigs and apes produced th…

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. We've done genetic studies on humans and apes, and we share some huge fraction of our genome with them (99%+, right?).

It's quite telling that in this era of abundant genetic data, this guy bases all of his arguments on anatomical similarities and says nothing about genetics. It's all but impossible that a link like what he's suggesting would have been overlooked if pigs had made any significant contribution to the human genome. (Just for example, we've got all sorts of estimates of species divergence dates among primates based on genetic data that should have given nonsensical results if there had been massive influxes of pig DNA in the middle of that history.)

Re: Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm

#39

Post by drcode »

geuis wrote: post #12

How closely related are the two species. Hybrids between species of horses and cats are common. Same for canines. But it didn't occur to me that wheels and goats are that closely related

> Hybrids between species of horses and cats are common

Yes, they're called "hats" or "corses".

Re: Rare 'goat-sheep' born on Irish farm

#40

Post by jhprks »

Goat and a sheep? that's disgusting... just totally inhumane for farmers to allow something so horrible to happen... I'm really worried about the future of the human society, what next? a dog and a cat? a human being and a chimpanzee? bunch of perverted maniacs deface what it means to be human, to be pure beings under name of Jesus Christ, we should all repent for our sins to the lord and the savior who created us 6000 years ago.
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