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Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

#31

Post by dang »

codezero wrote: post #30
dang wrote: post #21

This post was killed because a great many users flagged it. Moderators don't, as a rule, kill any stories that have an active thread. That way those who are interested in the discussion can keep it going. The most we would do is demote an item in rank. There are exceptions to this, but they're so rare I can't remember any. I'm unkilling the post, because I want to reply to some of the moderation questions downthread,…

Is there any reason not to "boost" the original discussion if new ones keep getting pushed to the site? It seems duplicative to allow repeat stories just to keep the discussion going. Better to downrank the dupes and uprank the original one if the discussion is still ongoing enough to draw constant repostings.

Good question. That's the intention, and also what ended up happening this afternoon. But there's a countervailing factor: when the discussion is so toxic as to be beyond the reach of pinpoint "Please don't be a jerk on Hacker News" nudges by the moderator. [1]

Empirically, the HN community has proven to be incapable of discussing certain subjects without immediately turning noxious. Once that happens, it's more than just a technical question of how best to consolidate the threads. The values of the site—intellectual substance and personal civility—are being grossly violated. If we allow that, how can we claim they're the values of the site? And if they're not the values of the site, who on earth would want to stay here?

That is the harder problem. We don't know yet what the long term solution will be, but we're going to keep experimenting until we find one.

[1] As you may have noticed, I've been making a lot of those this week--but they don't work on threads that have completely lost it.

Re: Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

#32

Post by imsogay »

enupten wrote: post #10

This is sad. I know about Brendan Eich's views, but Mozilla is an organization devoted to open source, none of whose concerns, as far as I can tell, have anything to be with sexual minorities. Were he still the CEO, he really couldn't have used his office to act on his views; so why all the castigating ? He has a view, and sure a lot of us (including me) don't agree with him, but this culture of outrage is disgusting…

Until recently I've been sympathetic towards their cause, but I'm starting to fear they'll make taking it up the ass mandatory soon.

Re: Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

#33

Post by benrhughes »

coldtea wrote: post #25
benrhughes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's bigotry when people are held accountable for their public opinions. Free speech cuts both ways.

If free speech "cuts", then it's not free speech. Free speech cutting both ways should only mean both parties are allowed to say whatever they like -- and the majority/plurality of the people decide democratically which way to go about it and who they agree with. If an unpopular speech means you get fired, then it's not free at all. It's "be careful what you say or bad things can happen to you" -speech. All dictators…

You're conflating freedom from government suppression and freedom from social consequences. Free speech refers to, and only to, the former.

Re: Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

#34

Post by codezero »

dang wrote: post #31
codezero wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any reason not to "boost" the original discussion if new ones keep getting pushed to the site? It seems duplicative to allow repeat stories just to keep the discussion going. Better to downrank the dupes and uprank the original one if the discussion is still ongoing enough to draw constant repostings.

Good question. That's the intention, and also what ended up happening this afternoon. But there's a countervailing factor: when the discussion is so toxic as to be beyond the reach of pinpoint "Please don't be a jerk on Hacker News" nudges by the moderator. [1] Empirically, the HN community has proven to be incapable of discussing certain subjects without immediately turning noxious. Once that happens, it's more than…

There are some practical approaches that could be used to do more than nudge when discussions turn toxic. Allowing fresh threads just leads to the inevitable if there isn't a solid solution to the toxic behavior in general.

Re: Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

#35

Post by judk »

dang wrote: post #31
codezero wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any reason not to "boost" the original discussion if new ones keep getting pushed to the site? It seems duplicative to allow repeat stories just to keep the discussion going. Better to downrank the dupes and uprank the original one if the discussion is still ongoing enough to draw constant repostings.

Good question. That's the intention, and also what ended up happening this afternoon. But there's a countervailing factor: when the discussion is so toxic as to be beyond the reach of pinpoint "Please don't be a jerk on Hacker News" nudges by the moderator. [1] Empirically, the HN community has proven to be incapable of discussing certain subjects without immediately turning noxious. Once that happens, it's more than…

If you just let people argue in the politics threads, maybe they won't pollute the non-politics threads so much.

Politics posts are non-coercive opt-in hellbans. Everybody wins.

Re: Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

#36

Post by judk »

dragonwriter wrote: post #24
coldtea wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really? Is there a rash of this sort of thing going on that I don't know about? Yes. How about the guy who lost his job for making a dongle joke, personally to his friend at a conference that was overheard? (And, then the woman who outed him on the internet lost her job too, again for reasons of public reaction). And tons of other examples besides -- people calling for others to get fired etc, because of their pers…

> He never expressed "bigotry publicly". He privately backed a cause he believed in (right or wrong) with a donation. Political donations (at least, of the size Eich made) are public, otherwise, this would never have been an issue.

Public, but not at all connected to his work at Mozilla.

Re: Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

#37

Post by judk »

shibby wrote: post #27
coldtea wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really? Is there a rash of this sort of thing going on that I don't know about? Yes. How about the guy who lost his job for making a dongle joke, personally to his friend at a conference that was overheard? (And, then the woman who outed him on the internet lost her job too, again for reasons of public reaction). And tons of other examples besides -- people calling for others to get fired etc, because of their pers…

> their personal, not work related, opinions. How do you know it's purely personal? He clearly doesn't agree that homosexual people should be afforded the same legal rights and societal status as heterosexual people in their personal lives. It's safer to assume that he would have negativity towards homosexuals in the workplace, e.g. look down upon them due to 'lifestyle choice' or some other bigoted nonsense, than to…

With 15 years under his belt, someone might have noticed if he had trouble separating work from politics. Perhaps his talent in this area is related to how he earn the CEO job over others who are incapable of conducting civil interactions with people they disagree with on unrelated matters.

Re: Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

#38

Post by judk »

MWil wrote: post #7

Quick question: Am I supposed to not be learning JavaScript because of him? edit: apparently downvotes are being used instead of "no, that's silly" which was really the point

Not using JavaScript would be a personal sacrifice, which is well above the slacktivism limits of trying to get someone fired from their job.

Re: Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

#39

Post by codezero »

judk wrote: post #35
dang wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. That's the intention, and also what ended up happening this afternoon. But there's a countervailing factor: when the discussion is so toxic as to be beyond the reach of pinpoint "Please don't be a jerk on Hacker News" nudges by the moderator. [1] Empirically, the HN community has proven to be incapable of discussing certain subjects without immediately turning noxious. Once that happens, it's more than…

If you just let people argue in the politics threads, maybe they won't pollute the non-politics threads so much. Politics posts are non-coercive opt-in hellbans. Everybody wins.

That simply doesn't work in practice.

Re: Brendan Eich resigns as CEO from Mozilla

#40

Post by dang »

codezero wrote: post #34
dang wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. That's the intention, and also what ended up happening this afternoon. But there's a countervailing factor: when the discussion is so toxic as to be beyond the reach of pinpoint "Please don't be a jerk on Hacker News" nudges by the moderator. [1] Empirically, the HN community has proven to be incapable of discussing certain subjects without immediately turning noxious. Once that happens, it's more than…

There are some practical approaches that could be used to do more than nudge when discussions turn toxic. Allowing fresh threads just leads to the inevitable if there isn't a solid solution to the toxic behavior in general.

There are some practical approaches

I'm all ears!

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