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The Drugging Of The American Boy

esquire.com

31–40 of 106 posts

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#31
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that what ADHD medication tries to do. If the root cause is a chemical imbalance, then treating is as a behavioural problem is only treating the symptoms.

There is no valid support for the chemical imbalance theory of mental illness. The reasoning is circular - "if chemicals reduce the symptoms, a chemical imbalance must have been the cause" Edit: seriously downvotes? This isn't news: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_imbalance

Or read http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/03/psychiatry-admits-wrong-... :

> BL: In Anatomy of an Epidemic, you also discussed the pseudoscience behind the “chemical imbalance” theories of mental illness—theories that made it easy to sell psychiatric drugs. In the last few years, I’ve noticed establishment psychiatry figures doing some major backpedaling on these chemical imbalance theories. For example, Ronald Pies, editor-in-chief emeritus of the Psychiatric Times stated in 2011, “In truth, the ‘chemical imbalance’ notion was always a kind of urban legend—never a theory seriously propounded by well-informed psychiatrists.” ...

> RW: In a sense, Ronald Pies is right. Those psychiatrists who were “well informed” about investigations into the chemical imbalance theory of mental disorders knew it hadn’t really panned out, with such findings dating back to the late 1970s and early 1980s. But why then did we as a society come to believe that mental disorders were due to chemical imbalances, which were then fixed by the drugs? ...

RW then goes on to list a couple of likely reasons.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#32

Why don't you read a fucking ADHD support forum and wonder whether the suffering caused by poor executive functioning/nervous system disorder is real? Why didn't they mention how many more times you are likely to die in a vehicular accident than non-adhd users? http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=10&q=adhd&hl=en&as_s... Google scholar for ADHD, why don't you realize that these ADHD articles are more akin to anti-…

Your response doesn't actually address the article, which acknowledges that ADHD is a real condition, but suggests that fewer than 1 in 5 boys have it, and that a large number of misdiagnosed cases is bad, considering that they're given serious drugs because of it. In fact, the only number it suggests as being inaccurate (based on an old study) is 25% of cases - that 1 in 4 cases is misdiagnosed. However, given the n…

Your response is vague apologism for irresponsible journalism justified on a minor technicality. The articles is so stupidly charitable to it's own worldview(in the sense of lying) and omitting so much from the other side that it is ridiculous.

You are wrong to think that these people deserve "serious consideration", when the article is written itself to produce knee-jerk reactions "The drugging of the american boy....", as if we had IV Heroin plugged to these kids. Article allows for the opposition, most people who have random opinions about ADHD for no apparent reason other than to have an opinion.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23382575 (Is ADHD a Risk Factor for High School Dropout? A Controlled Study.) tells us that " Conclusion: Participants with ADHD were significantly more likely to repeat a grade"

Do you know the cost of high school drop outs or grade repeats to society? What about to the kid, who suffers massive self-esteem loss and under-values himself? Why is the author not more responsible? The modern era brings us new journalism-contrarian-chic, stylstic articles that irresponsibly lend fuel to very harmful world-views(such asADHD is not serious)

What drugs, exactly, and to which boy? Is the cost of not-treating much greater than the cost of treating? The article is merely an appeal to pop-trash trendy world-views, and does not deserve much of a response at all

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#33

Why don't you read a fucking ADHD support forum and wonder whether the suffering caused by poor executive functioning/nervous system disorder is real? Why didn't they mention how many more times you are likely to die in a vehicular accident than non-adhd users? http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=10&q=adhd&hl=en&as_s... Google scholar for ADHD, why don't you realize that these ADHD articles are more akin to anti-…

Your response doesn't actually address the article, which acknowledges that ADHD is a real condition, but suggests that fewer than 1 in 5 boys have it, and that a large number of misdiagnosed cases is bad, considering that they're given serious drugs because of it. In fact, the only number it suggests as being inaccurate (based on an old study) is 25% of cases - that 1 in 4 cases is misdiagnosed. However, given the n…

[deleted]

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#34
post #24
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

three-quarters of Americans need vision correction, does that make it 'normal'?

Yes, and well understood. Do you understand ADHD?

As someone who has gone through tests and been diagnosed with ADD, I think I understand the frustrations, and it definitely does not "feel" normal.

Not being able to hold onto a thought for more than 3 minutes, or having to deal with potentially being distracted by every little thing that happens around me does not feel like the normal state of affairs. Trivial tasks can take me hours instead of minutes in some situations.

Unfortunately I'm currently in a country that doesn't allow me to get medication for this (and previously I was in a country that believes that ADD/ADHD magically disappears when you turn 18), but I still have good memories of how much it helped me get through middle school and high school (I went from almost never finishing my math homework to being able to finish everything in class in only half the allotted time).

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#35
post #6

A few years ago teachers complained that both my boys were too intense on the playground, 'diagnosed' with ADHD. Docs were eager to prescribe meds to make them conform. There is something in our society wants to redefine normal behavior as pathology. Maybe to get you hooked and build revenue streams, maybe just to make you more pliable. Fuck that. Yes there are legitimate cases. But I've only experienced people who w…

Count me as a legitimate case.

That being said, all the research I've done into it on my own shows that the ability of the system to diagnose ADHD is crap. As in huge numbers of both false positives and false negatives. The over-diagnosis is a huge problem, and it results in not only large numbers of children being prescribed stimulant medication mistakenly, but it causes parents of kids who could benefit from such medication to rightfully have second thoughts when a doctor recommends it.

In particular a lot of those who make ADHD referrals kind of have this mapping of "Problem Kid" => "Likely ADHD" when that doesn't seem to be a particularly good mapping.

There are even significant downsides to kids with ADHD taking stimulant medication, but in that case, it appears that the likely benefit does outweigh the likely harm.

Now that I'm a parent, I also wonder if the increased diagnosis of boys is partly due to the differences in the school system. I see more homework and deskwork at a younger age than when I was a kid, but combined with less of a "boys will be boys" tolerance for destructive behavior than when my dad was a kid. Of course I have no numbers on this, so it may merely be nostalgia thinking that that is the trend.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#36
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can deafness be treated in any other way? What effort is being made to determine whether the etiology of ADHD is primarily biochemical (chemical/genetic), or primarily psychological (environmental/human-interaction)? Drugging to counteract ADHD symptoms makes sense only if it's the former.

So given that ADHD is, in actual fact, a neurobiological diagnosis, not a psychological diagnosis, then I guess you're stating your support for treating it with drugs?

Neurobiological sounds like psychological to me. Unless you're saying doctors are measuring things like dopamine activity or doing brain MRIs to diagnose ADHD.

There's no good evidence that ADHD is not the result of psychological conditioning. For that matter, even if you measured abnormal neurotransmitter activity or brain scans in suspected ADHD patients before diagnosing them, if you looked at animal psychology studies where pathological behavior has been induced by conditioning, I'd be surprised if there weren't abnormal brain scans and neurotransmitter activity there, too. The neurochemical/neurophysical measurements that might provide "evidence" of a non-psychological etiology are invalid if those physical aspects of the brain are themselves affected/modulated by neurological conditioning/development.

If your solution to any problematic "neurobiological" symptom that responds well to a certain drug is to prescribe that drug, because if it responds to a drug it must be a chemical/genetic problem, then everyone will be on a drug eventually. Probably several.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#37
post #34
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and well understood. Do you understand ADHD?

As someone who has gone through tests and been diagnosed with ADD, I think I understand the frustrations, and it definitely does not "feel" normal. Not being able to hold onto a thought for more than 3 minutes, or having to deal with potentially being distracted by every little thing that happens around me does not feel like the normal state of affairs. Trivial tasks can take me hours instead of minutes in some situa…

For sure - there is a wide variety of human experience, and each of us understands our own. By understanding ADHD, I was talking about the causes and the nature, not the experience.

If drugs are the only way someone like you can lead a happy life, then you should be able to use them.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#38
To me, as an adult, getting a diagnosis on ADHD was a godsend. However, after a couple of years, I see the drug's affects waning. I can also see how damaging this dependency creation can be for children.

Fortunately, when I was a child back in India, ADHD was virtually unknown (probably the case today as well). Most of the time, my parents chalked off my inattention to "lack of discipline" and were happy as long as my grades were good. I found the coursework very easy (despite studying for only 1-1:30 hrs a day) and topped most of my classes.

University here in he U.S wasn't hard either. My problems started once I started working. Couldn't code continuously for more than 15-20 mins at a time. Things got boring very quickly once I got the "aha". I couldn't hold a lot of program state in my head. I was always searching for that "flow" people often talked about.

Adderall really helped me. I use it very sparingly these days (especially on days that I have to code some important pieces) though.

Bottomline, looks like this is purely genetic and fixing the dopamine pathways isn't exactly like curing malaria, you can juice things up but the brain will want more. Parents can choose to give it to their children but they'll suffer some time down the road. I'd rather let the kid enjoy childhood and help him in other ways (exercise, note-taking, engaging activities etc) and put him in a reasonably good path to success. Let them take drugs if necessary once they've wised up as adults.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#39
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can deafness be treated in any other way? What effort is being made to determine whether the etiology of ADHD is primarily biochemical (chemical/genetic), or primarily psychological (environmental/human-interaction)? Drugging to counteract ADHD symptoms makes sense only if it's the former.

So given that ADHD is, in actual fact, a neurobiological diagnosis, not a psychological diagnosis, then I guess you're stating your support for treating it with drugs?

What are the biochemical markers for ADHD, and how are they tested for during diagnosis?

To my understanding, they are not, which makes ADHD a psychological condition.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#40
post #4

Why don't you read a fucking ADHD support forum and wonder whether the suffering caused by poor executive functioning/nervous system disorder is real? Why didn't they mention how many more times you are likely to die in a vehicular accident than non-adhd users? http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=10&q=adhd&hl=en&as_s... Google scholar for ADHD, why don't you realize that these ADHD articles are more akin to anti-…

Thank you. As I've stated before, either ADHD is real, or psychologists have found the world's best predictive test for auto accidents. People with untreated ADHD have 3x the likelihood of being in an auto accident. 56% rate of substance abuse. Think about that for a moment. 56%. Holy shit. These are the people who instead of getting help, were told that they are "lazy" and "needed to get up off their asses." Except…

I'd like to read more about the structural brain differences, if you've got links.
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