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The Brutal Ageism of Tech

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31–40 of 361 posts

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#31

Experience is a liability. You learn all kinds of things as an engineer that quickly become obsolete. Even in the web environment. If you're still worried about hasLayout or rounding corners with images, or god forbid using tables for layout, or even setting explicit widths on your web pages instead of responsive media queries, you're adhering to obsolete ways of doing things that are hurting you more than helping. E…

Experience also gives you the kind of skills that don't become obsolete, and which can't be learned in just a couple of years of practice:

- Writing reliable, maintainable and testable code

- Strategies for solving problems that are very large or very difficult

- The ability to interact well with developers, product managers, executives, customers, etc.

- Knowledge of algorithms and other fundamental things in computer science

Being a good software developer is about a lot more than just dealing with the mechanics of the particular software environment you happen to be using today.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#33

Here's the thing, the software-is-eating-the-world explosion really took off in the early 90's (or at least that's when myself and a bunch of friends I knew got into it). All the people that got into writing software back then are aging and most that I know aren't planning to stop. I myself am on the doorstep of my 36th birthday. For those of us that have slogged it out for multiple decades now aren't simply going to…

While we can try to disrupt, we are handicapped on the energy or the risks that we need to take to get this done.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#34
post #7

Guess what, there's a lot of software being written by people not in their 20s in places like Kansas City, Boston and Nashville. The world doesn't revolve around Silicon Valley.

And that's really the thing a lot of these articles miss. While 20-somethings are making software to automate burrito delivery to other 20-somethings with drones in San Francisco, there's a whole world full of developers solving real problems each day. But it's hard to convince the rest of the world that there's more to the software industry than the Bay Area echo chamber. Edit: I know not all of Silicon Valley is do…

This is true. There's a perception that 20/30-somethings are the hot thing in tech because they're building the kind of consumer apps that techCrunch likes to cover.

But there are a ton of startups/developers building really cool tech - in SF and beyond - and they end to be older and more interested in real technology vs cashing out their options.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#35
post #11

One of the biggest indirect causes of ageism I've seen is the traditional career path forced many engineers out of engineering - there is/was an attitude at places like IBM of: "If you want to make bank, you need to go into management or sales". Years later, an engineering crunch makes engineering into "where the money is", but you largely lost a generation of technical experience that took a break of a decade or two…

This makes a lot of sense. It's something that I feel is changing nowadays thankfully.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#36
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well AFAIK FB uses C++ and they are mentioned as one of the companies using these hiring practices.

I would not call Facebook a start up anymore. They are creating their own VMs and Database systems. Most start ups don't do that. Unless that's the product.

Well I didn't call them a startup. And they are creating their own VMs and DBs which is even more reason not to hire only devs who are fresh out of school.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#38
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not call Facebook a start up anymore. They are creating their own VMs and Database systems. Most start ups don't do that. Unless that's the product.

Well I didn't call them a startup. And they are creating their own VMs and DBs which is even more reason not to hire only devs who are fresh out of school.

I did specifically state start ups. I don't live in san fransico/silicon valley, but where I live the vast majority of developers are working for small start ups and small businesses and not the facebooks of the world.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a capability thing. It's a make-you-work-more-hours-for-less-money-than-the-older-engineer thing.

But why do they care so much about hours and not about output? I would kind of understand if this was for some web technologies since older devs might not be up to speed with the latest compile-to-JS language but I can't imagine that someone who has been writing say C++ for the last 20 years would not perform better than someone fresh out of school.

Because half of these guys are under 30 and they don't want to hire someone who reminds them of their dad.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#40
I started my IT path early in the 80's working for a Goverment facility doing COBOL programminmg at the tender age of 17. Agisim back then was against young people and more the older people working in the industry. This was born out when a year later a new batch of trainee's of which one I was mentoring was actualy being paid twice what I was. This was soley due to age.

I moved on to another company and trippled my salary in the private sector, though again was told by the recruiter if I was over 21 I would of got paid at least £2k more than I was.

After a short time I moved into contracting at around the age of 19, doing COBOL work. Again I had many issues due to ageisim for being so young in what was a old generation feild. Interviews would be a complete grilling of which I excelled and shone above and with that got the work. Age was still a factor then and as a young contractor I was often dismissed by people soley due to my age. Though would always shine above them in technical ability, because I had too.

After a few years contracting and the isolation of being a contractor amongst permies(permenant staff) I would feel left out and moved back into permenant work.

Times changed, now it is the reverse and sadly I missed both boats, being at the age of 47 and with the IT feild often shafted on many managerial levels I somewhat regret not working in a building trade as many people I know did and made better money, more free time, less stress and burden. Not forgetting it is a older trade and with that TAX wise more adapt in NI contributions (National Insurance - UK thing) being a pitance on contract to IT, which is full rate. Then there was the introduction of IR35 desigend to penalise contractors in IT directly.

It still is finding it's feet and whilst law and accounts have there long standing estabilished exams of recognition, IT still does not. With any certification easily expiring in a few years and nothing holding up for a lifetimes of work.

Sadly that still prevails and IT is often the butt of all departments in many a company and often shat upon, little reward for good work that saves money over other departments who add little value.

But during my time, one event stuck out. I went for a permenant job at a company - PC Database work, Dataease and turned up at reception ontime. Was left waiting for 30 minutes then handed a form to fill out, which was basicly a HR form regergitating what was already on my CV. I then had an intervew with the HR manager. She was very curt and rude and said, that is a lot of money for somebody your age and was very dismissive and really put me off the company. I had the IT department intervew with a manager and contractor they had in who was an `expert` in the feild. Shone thru and even educated the contractor about a hidden debug mode, happily answeared the question about post codes in so much detail that it was scary (post codes same as USA ZIP codes). This resulted in a job offer before I even got home, offering me more than I was (the recruiter) asked for. I turned it down flat for a lesser paid role as the HR experience had put me off completely from that company.

So whilst agisim is a problem, that problem has gone from looking down upon young people, to looking down upon older people.

But the real issue of IT and one that will carry on for many years is one of establishment, be it certification and exams that stand the test of time akin to accountants or lawyers. Until that day, IT will always in many companies be the shat feild for many due to upper managment mentality. Which ironicly enough is the older people mostly. Younger managerment (CEO's etc) have more respect for IT and also sadly less respect for older people in IT.

With that I often wished I was born earlier or later instead of catching the shit-tide from both ends from when I was young and now older.

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