Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 124 posts

Re: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

#31

Post by devbug »

jonrimmer wrote: post #10
stale2001 wrote: post #4

What world is this article living in? I got a job making $100k as a software engineer, right out of college (top-tier I guess). And then I realized that I was worth more than that, and 8 months later I'm now switching over to a job making $150k in total compensation. And TBH, I was middle of the road compared to my classmates.

Why do you think all these silicon valley CEOs are throwing their weight behind schemes to get kids and adults learning how to code? It isn't because they really believe there's some social or personal value in being able to program, it's because they want to flood the job market with developers and so crash wages. What's sad is that many programmers are actually buying it, and volunteering their time to help support…

And every time you try to explain this to those who will be affected (software engineers) they argue that the movement is alturistic, or that they can't be replaced even though they're just maintaining a simple CRUD app...

Re: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

#33

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #27
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At many levels the national discussions are distorted by failure to understand regional costs of living and taxes and the matter of finding acceptable schools. People talk about the 1% without realizing that two $150K incomes supporting a few kids are at best "comfortable" by the standards of our grandparents in markets like NYC and SF. My grandfathers with skilled tradesman wages were able to support stay at home wi…

"two $150K incomes supporting a few kids are at best "comfortable" by the standards of our grandparents" No. This is a gross exaggeration and extremely out of touch with economic reality.

No it's not an exaggeration. Find me a market today where four weeks off and a sub one hour drive to a truly nice rental beachfront single family home is a realistic expectation. Also, the home neighborhood is totally safe and good schools are in walking distance. This is the stuff that really drives the cost of living, not square footage and eggs and ipads per dollar.

Re: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

#34

Post by mjn »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #33
waterlesscloud wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"two $150K incomes supporting a few kids are at best "comfortable" by the standards of our grandparents" No. This is a gross exaggeration and extremely out of touch with economic reality.

No it's not an exaggeration. Find me a market today where four weeks off and a sub one hour drive to a truly nice rental beachfront single family home is a realistic expectation. Also, the home neighborhood is totally safe and good schools are in walking distance. This is the stuff that really drives the cost of living, not square footage and eggs and ipads per dollar.

Find me a market today where four weeks off and a sub one hour drive to a truly nice rental beachfront single family home is a realistic expectation. Also, the home neighborhood is totally safe and good schools are in walking distance.

How about Silicon Valley? Cupertino is safe and has good schools. And it's <1 hr drive to Santa Cruz or Half Moon Bay if you want beaches. Or you could do the other direction, and live in SC and commute to Cupertino (or wherever). Google even runs shuttles if that's your thing. I lived in Santa Cruz for years on a 5-figure salary, and felt quite comfortably well off. Actually I sort of wish it were further from Silicon Valley, because the only bad thing about living in SC was that the rich techies with 6-figure salaries were driving up prices...

Re: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

#35

Post by jshen »

michaelochurch wrote: post #28

Well, there is a shortage of competent software engineers willing to sacrifice as much as corporate executives think they should, for what corporate executives think such people should be paid. In the same vein, there's a shortage of supermodels who want to fuck obese, unemployed men with halitosis and general poor hygiene.

I think you're wrong. I have the hardest time finding good engineers, we pay very well, we don't expect anyone to work crazy overtime, etc.

Can we make this more concrete? What sacrifices do you think is being asked of competent developers? What pay do you think they are offered?

Re: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

#36

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

mjn wrote: post #30
waterlesscloud wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"two $150K incomes supporting a few kids are at best "comfortable" by the standards of our grandparents" No. This is a gross exaggeration and extremely out of touch with economic reality.

That was my reaction; I'm not sure how someone could have any historical knowledge and think that. My grandparents were, I think, fairly typical middle-class Americans. They raised 2 kids in a ~1200-sq-ft house in the Los Angeles suburbs, which was considered pretty big. Ate out only on special occasions, maybe 8-9 times a year, never just because they didn't feel like cooking. Did not have "help" to mow their lawns,…

> I didn't have kids

> sq-ft

Well this sort of thing is the crux of the matter. If you give a shit about restaurants and ipads, well yes now is better. If the idea of having a handful of grandkids appeals to you, well now is worse.

Re: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

#37

Post by mehrdada »

jshen wrote: post #35
michaelochurch wrote: post #28

Well, there is a shortage of competent software engineers willing to sacrifice as much as corporate executives think they should, for what corporate executives think such people should be paid. In the same vein, there's a shortage of supermodels who want to fuck obese, unemployed men with halitosis and general poor hygiene.

I think you're wrong. I have the hardest time finding good engineers, we pay very well, we don't expect anyone to work crazy overtime, etc. Can we make this more concrete? What sacrifices do you think is being asked of competent developers? What pay do you think they are offered?

> we pay very well

How do you know, objectively? Have you tried paying twice (or more) the current market rate, for instance, and binary search for a point where you have enough happy hires and failed? Perhaps the market rate is artificially lowered.

Re: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

#38

Post by mjn »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #36
mjn wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my reaction; I'm not sure how someone could have any historical knowledge and think that. My grandparents were, I think, fairly typical middle-class Americans. They raised 2 kids in a ~1200-sq-ft house in the Los Angeles suburbs, which was considered pretty big. Ate out only on special occasions, maybe 8-9 times a year, never just because they didn't feel like cooking. Did not have "help" to mow their lawns,…

> I didn't have kids > sq-ft Well this sort of thing is the crux of the matter. If you give a shit about restaurants and ipads, well yes now is better. If the idea of having a handful of grandkids appeals to you, well now is worse.

I acknowledged that I didn't have kids, but I also made <$50k. I could've paid for kids, and lived quite well doing so, if I had an extra $250k/yr!

Re: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

#39

Post by jshen »

mehrdada wrote: post #37
jshen wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're wrong. I have the hardest time finding good engineers, we pay very well, we don't expect anyone to work crazy overtime, etc. Can we make this more concrete? What sacrifices do you think is being asked of competent developers? What pay do you think they are offered?

> we pay very well How do you know, objectively? Have you tried paying twice (or more) the current market rate, for instance, and binary search for a point where you have enough happy hires and failed? Perhaps the market rate is artificially lowered.

The problem isn't that good engineers turn done our offers, it's that very few good engineers come in the door. The ones that have were very happy with their offers.

Edit: Didn't realize you weren't the person I originally replied to. Let's reverse your question. What is the objective basis for the claim that engineers are asked to sacrifice to much for too little pay?

Re: The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage

#40

Post by unknownian »

enewc wrote: post #23
stale2001 wrote: post #4

What world is this article living in? I got a job making $100k as a software engineer, right out of college (top-tier I guess). And then I realized that I was worth more than that, and 8 months later I'm now switching over to a job making $150k in total compensation. And TBH, I was middle of the road compared to my classmates.

First of all your, viewpoint is restricted to EE/CS. Any of the other pure sciences: biology, chemistry, physics, etc. do not enjoy the same luxuries. Another important distinction to make is that there are almost no science (i.e. research) jobs any more. Most technology jobs are just run of the mill programming, not actually investing in research.

And yet everyone wants to equate the two. Personally I don't even think webdev should count as STEM at all.
Post reply on HN