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Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

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Re: Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

#31
post #7

A question for the physicists on HN: I've heard that black holes emit radiation. But if nothing can go faster than the speed of light, and a black hole's gravity is so strong that not even light can escape, then how can a black hole emit anything? Is there a kind of black hole which is so massive that not even that radiation can escape, or do all black holes emit some kind of radiation? (In fact, do they emit radiati…

IanCal and blaze33 both gave good answers, but just to clarify one thing: the radiation we see coming from regions where there are black holes is of the first type: radiation emitted by objects like gas clouds that are falling into the holes, before those objects cross the event horizon. If we leave out quantum effects like Hawking radiation (see below), it's impossible for light, or any kind of radiation, or indeed…

Isn't the nonexistence of large black holes from cosmic ray collisions proof of black hole evaporation? Or have we not been able to measure that / have reason to doubt micro-black-holes are created by cosmic ray collisions in the first place?

Re: Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

#32
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's nothing there that refutes the blog I understand that you don't agree that what I posted refutes the blog, but I'm not trying to convince you, and I'm not going to rehash the argument here. I'm just linking to that discussion for the record, so others reading this thread will understand that your claims and the blog's claims about black holes are not undisputed. (not my argument). You may not have written the…

What sentence in that picture's caption is wrong, or what doesn't follow from its premises? Asking for extraordinary evidence isn't a scientific thing. Valid logic is all the evidence needed. Yes it's my argument in that way. I'll challenge a refutation or accept it, but that's difficult when the counter argument is a vague wall of text. If I were to try to summarize what you think is wrong I couldn't do it. I can't…

I can't decipher your points to see how they refutes any particular sentence in the blog.

That's because the blog post itself is not very well written, and doesn't state correctly what relativity actually says.

Please be way more clear and short and to the point

I'll give it another shot below.

They agree that frame X in the blog post is validly defined and validly used in the thought experiment. Their quote in the blog makes that clear.

It does no such thing. Taylor and Wheeler do not say that the blog post's "Law J" and "Law K" are correct statements of what relativity actually says. They're not; they're not even stated precisely enough to have a definite meaning that can be compared with what relativity says.

Rather than try to go through the blog post in detail, let me try stating two simpler puzzles that bring out what seem to me to be the essential points. Here's the setting for both puzzles: an astronaut is falling through the event horizon of a black hole. Just before reaching the horizon, he launches a probe outward at escape velocity, which will be just a smidgen less than the speed of light.

Now consider the astronaut's local inertial frame (LIF) as he crosses the horizon: i.e., the origin (t = 0, x = 0) of this frame is the event at which the astronaut crosses the horizon, and the time axis of the frame is the astronaut's worldline as he falls in. According to relativity, the following are all true statements:

(1) The horizon is an outward-moving lightlike curve that passes through the frame's origin; i.e., it is the line t = x in that frame.

(2) The probe's worldline starts at t = some value just a little bit less than zero, x = 0, and moves in the positive x direction at just a bit less than the speed of light.

(3) Therefore, in this LIF, the horizon is moving outward faster than the probe.

The first puzzle is simple: if all of the above are true, how can the probe ever escape? Won't the horizon catch it? (Meaning, won't it end up below the horizon, not escaping to infinity?)

The resolution of this puzzle is equally simple: the size of the LIF is much, much smaller than the predicted distance, extrapolated from within the LIF, that it will take for the horizon to catch the probe. Therefore, within the LIF, the probe remains outside the horizon. And once we're outside the LIF, tidal gravity is not negligible, and it will "pull" the horizon down with respect to the probe, so the horizon will never catch the probe.

The calculations underlying what I just said about the size of the LIF vs. the distance required for the horizon to catch the probe are on PhysicsForums here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=4285946&postcoun...

The second puzzle is a bit more subtle. Consider the following statements, which are also true according to relativity:

(4) With respect to a global coordinate chart describing the black hole spacetime, the horizon is at a constant radial coordinate r.

(5) With respect to the same global coordinate chart, the probe's radial coordinate r is increasing.

(6) However, the distance from the probe to the horizon, in the astronaut's LIF, is decreasing, at least while the probe and horizon remain within the LIF. (This is obvious from statement #3 given earlier.)

The second puzzle then is, how can #5 and #6 be reconciled? How can the probe have increasing r when it's getting closer to the horizon, which is at constant r?

The best way I know of to see the resolution this second puzzle is to actually draw a spacetime diagram of the LIF, with curves of constant r correctly drawn. If you do that, you will see that the curves of constant r are drawn in such a way that the probe's worldline has increasing r even though its distance from the horizon, in terms of the LIF's x coordinate, decreases. I can't draw such a diagram here, but the key fact that makes this true can be seen by considering statement #4 above, combined with statement #1: the horizon is a curve of constant r, but in the LIF, it is a 45 degree line moving up and to the right! (It's the line t = x in the LIF, per #1.) A curve of constant r lying just outside the horizon will slope up and to the right, a bit more vertical than 45 degrees (which makes it timelike); whereas a curve of constant r just inside the horizon will slope up and to the right a bit more horizontal than 45 degrees (which makes it spacelike). The slope of the lines of constant r that pass through the probe's worldline, which also slopes up and to the right at almost 45 degrees (since the probe is moving outward at almost the speed of light) turn out to be sloped a little closer to 45 degrees than the probe's worldline is; so the probe ends up crossing curves with gradually increasing values of r.

Re: Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

#33
post #11

One small nitpick about a statement in the article; it says: Though we think of them as cosmic vacuum cleaners, black holes are actually just like any other massive body, such as a star. This means other objects can safely orbit them, until they get within a particular distance and pass what’s known as the event horizon, after which there is no escaping being sucked in. Technically, you can't "safely orbit" a black h…

Technically there may be no "safe distance" at all, depending on how much time you're talking about. The whole galaxy seems to be caught in the spiral of a super massive blackhole, and it's just a matter of time before everything falls into it, although most stars will probably die out before they do. So I guess you could consider that "safe", since the time it takes to fall into the blackhole is longer than the time…

It deserves mentioning that it is very difficult for things in space to fall into each other. If two bodies aren't on a direct collision course they will orbit or slingshot, not "circle the drain until they fall in." The effects that do promote "falling in" happen on very, very long timescales with respect to anything, including stellar lifecycles (you mentioned this but didn't emphasize the extent to which one timescale utterly dominates the other).

We are used to circulating fluid inevitably falling into the center of a drain, but this only happens in our daily lives because viscosity allows the water to shed angular momentum (about the drain) to its surroundings. No angular momentum transfer = no falling into the center, and a galaxy doesn't have a gigantic porcelain fixture anchored to the central black hole to which stars can transfer their angular momentum :)

Re: Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

#34

If only black holes weren't illogical! [1] Any decent software developer (i.e. highly logical thinker) who knows basic info about black holes can look at the picture there to quickly see that black holes are inconsistent with the core postulate of general relativity, the equivalence principle. They're a bug! (which Einstein spent a decade trying to find, or some other way that nature could prevent black holes he thou…

The simplest way to show the essential physical error is via this picture, from the article: http://finbot.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/t9.png This picture shows the event horizon as having constant position in a free-falling frame. But the event horizon accelerates in all nearby inertial frames, exactly like how the surface of the earth accelerates (towards you) in every inertial frame near the earth. So the line rep…

the event horizon accelerates in all nearby inertial frame

No, it doesn't. The event horizon is an outgoing null geodesic; it has zero proper acceleration. It is certainly not anything like the surface of the Earth.

The horizon forms a hyperbola in any such inertial frame

No, it doesn't. The horizon is an outgoing lightlike surface, so in any local inertial frame that contains it, it will be a straight line moving up and to the right at 45 degrees. (See my post in response to fargolime upthread for a more detailed description.)

in relativity, test particles moving with constant acceleration can be "uncatchable" even though they never reach c. See Rindler coordinates for more.

It's true that the Rindler horizon gives a good flat spacetime analogy for many key features of the event horizon of a black hole. But you appear to have things backwards: the object moving at constant acceleration is not the Rindler horizon; it is "uncatchable" by the Rindler horizon! In other words, the Rindler horizon is a light ray moving in the same direction as the accelerating object, but which never quite catches up with it (because the test object has just enough of a head start).

This illustrates why an outgoing test particle cannot cross the event horizon.

No, it doesn't. The reason an outgoing test particle inside the horizon can't cross it is simple: the horizon is moving outward at the speed of light, and nothing can go faster than light.

There are no inertial frames that cross the horizon

This is not correct; there are, just as Taylor and Wheeler say. There are plenty of wrong statements in the blog post, but this is not one of them.

Re: Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

#35
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Armchair Physicist here, not a real one. There are two reasons why you'd say black holes emit radiation. An interesting one and a very interesting one (warning, other peoples scales may be calibrated differently to mine). 1) Black holes accelerate things massively , so they're travelling at an astonishing speed before they "enter". This can result in huge amounts of x-rays being emitted due to heating things to milli…

> one of the particles to fall in and the other to escape. This results in a loss of mass of the black hole (told you it was weird) How does the energy to create the virtual particles come from the black hole (which it has to in order for the accounting to work: -2+1=-1)? Is it a "Quantum Field Theory doesn't care about the event horizon" type thing?

It doesn't take any energy to create virtual particles; virtual particle pairs are constantly being created and destroyed everywhere, according to Quantum Field Theory, but when they're created, on average, they have zero net energy: one has positive energy and one has negative energy. (Note that this is a heuristic description and not every quantum field theorist would agree with it. The only really unambiguous way to describe the process is using math; but translating math into everyday language is often difficult because our intuitions don't really match up with what the math is telling us. I'm doing the best I can.)

However, if a virtual particle pair happens to be created just outside a black hole's horizon, the hole's tidal gravity can pull the negative energy particle inside the horizon before it can be annihilated by the positive energy particle. The positive energy particle can then escape. Effectively, this means the positive energy particle's energy is taken from the hole's mass, so the hole's mass decreases slightly.

Re: Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

#36
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IanCal and blaze33 both gave good answers, but just to clarify one thing: the radiation we see coming from regions where there are black holes is of the first type: radiation emitted by objects like gas clouds that are falling into the holes, before those objects cross the event horizon. If we leave out quantum effects like Hawking radiation (see below), it's impossible for light, or any kind of radiation, or indeed…

Isn't the nonexistence of large black holes from cosmic ray collisions proof of black hole evaporation? Or have we not been able to measure that / have reason to doubt micro-black-holes are created by cosmic ray collisions in the first place?

I would say we don't have accurate enough measurements or an accurate enough theoretical understanding to know how many micro-black-holes we should expect to see from cosmic ray collisions, on the assumption that none of them ever evaporate, or to be able to measure how many there actually are, so as to be able to compare the two numbers to see if there's a significant difference. In principle this would certainly be a good experimental test for the existence of black hole evaporation; I just don't think it's a test we can make with any confidence now or in the near future.

Re: Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

#37
post #15

A question for the physicists on HN: I've heard that black holes emit radiation. But if nothing can go faster than the speed of light, and a black hole's gravity is so strong that not even light can escape, then how can a black hole emit anything? Is there a kind of black hole which is so massive that not even that radiation can escape, or do all black holes emit some kind of radiation? (In fact, do they emit radiati…

Is there a kind of black hole which is so massive that not even that radiation can escape, or do all black holes emit some kind of radiation? (In fact, do they emit radiation proportional to their size?) Also armchair physicist here - my understanding is that since information can never be destroyed, Blackholes must emit something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox

I think there's pretty general agreement among physicists that we will eventually confirm that black holes emit Hawking radiation. However, that by itself doesn't help us to choose between all the various proposed resolutions of the information paradox.

Re: Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

#38
post #18

this might sound like a stupid question but what happens when you get sucked up by a black hole? what's in the other side of it.

If you read Stephen Hawking's book "A Brief History of Time" you will see that a variant on this question is what started him on the path of reasoning about black holes in the first place. The question does not currently have a definitive answer. Although current mathematical analysis has in falling matter being dismantled at the sub-atomic level as it undergoes the tidal stresses associated with gravity. Basically i…

if you were standing at the event horizon the pull on your feet would be several billion times the pull on your head.

This is true for a black hole with mass a few times the mass of the Sun, the sort we expect to be formed by the gravitational collapse of stars. However, a much larger black hole would have much less tidal gravity at the horizon. Some of the supermassive black holes that are believed to be at the centers of quasars would have less tidal gravity at their horizon than you feel on the surface of the Earth.

The confounding factor is that if you're falling into a black hole the acceleration can get your velocity to nearly light speed

Velocity is relative. You will be moving at the speed of light relative to observers who are "hovering" just outside the hole's horizon; but other people falling into the hole just ahead of or behind you could have much smaller velocities relative to you, even well after you cross the horizon (depending on how close they were to you to start with).

and at that velocity your perception of time slows, to the point of nearly stopping

Your perception of time would be normal; you would notice nothing unusual in the behavior of clocks you carried with you, even well after you fell inside the horizon (assuming the tidal gravity was bearable--see above).

Also, "time" as you're using it here is relative; there is no absolute notion of "perception of time".

while people watching you fall in might see a burst of xrays as your physical being converted into energy, "you" might perceive nothing at all

They would only see this if it happened outside the horizon, which it might if the hole's tidal gravity was large enough outside the horizon. But in this case, while it would be true that you would perceive nothing at all, that would simply be because you would be turned into x-rays and destroyed; it would have nothing to do with any change in your "perception of time" due to relativity (see above).

Once you reach the horizon, even if you emit x-rays, nobody outside the hole will ever see them, since light emitted at or inside the horizon can never get back out. But your "perception of time" will continue just fine, assuming again that tidal gravity is bearable (see above).

Most theories do not currently postulate a 'far side' of a black hole

By "far side" do you mean a region inside the event horizon? If so, you are wrong; our current theories most certainly do predict (not postulate, it's not an assumption, it's derived as a theorem) that there is spacetime inside the horizons of black holes.

In theory its really just a point where the numbers go out of whack because the equations have a divide by zero error there.

This is only true in a particular system of coordinates; it is not true as a statement about the actual physics. That is, there is no actual problem with spacetime at the horizon; all physical quantities are perfectly finite there. The "divide by zero error" is a purely mathematical problem with one coordinate chart, which can be fixed simply by using different coordinates.

Re: Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

#39
post #18

this might sound like a stupid question but what happens when you get sucked up by a black hole? what's in the other side of it.

According to classical general relativity (i.e., without taking any quantum effects into account), if you fall inside the hole's event horizon, you will at some point get torn apart and destroyed by tidal gravity. (If the hole is small enough, that could happen even before you reach the horizon). Eventually even the atoms and subatomic particles that you were composed of will be destroyed in the singularity inside the hole.

When you include quantum effects, we don't have a good theory at this point to predict what happens; it depends on how the "black hole information paradox" is finally resolved. However, in terms of what will happen to you in practical terms, not much changes from the above: you will still most likely get torn apart by either tidal gravity or some kind of quantum "firewall". The details of what happens after that won't make much difference to you in practical terms.

Re: Scientists May Get Best View Yet of a Black Hole in Action

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically there may be no "safe distance" at all, depending on how much time you're talking about. The whole galaxy seems to be caught in the spiral of a super massive blackhole, and it's just a matter of time before everything falls into it, although most stars will probably die out before they do. So I guess you could consider that "safe", since the time it takes to fall into the blackhole is longer than the time…

It deserves mentioning that it is very difficult for things in space to fall into each other. If two bodies aren't on a direct collision course they will orbit or slingshot, not "circle the drain until they fall in." The effects that do promote "falling in" happen on very, very long timescales with respect to anything, including stellar lifecycles (you mentioned this but didn't emphasize the extent to which one times…

Actually there is a way that objects orbiting other objects can shed angular momentum: emit gravitational waves. We've observed this with binary pulsar systems; it's expected that it would also be taking place with objects orbiting the black hole at the center of our galaxy. This is one of those "long timescale" effects in most cases, but for objects close enough to the black hole at the center of our galaxy its time scale might not actually be longer than the lifetime of some of those objects. (That would only be true pretty close to the hole, though.)
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