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How CMU Increased the Proportion of Women in Computer Science (2013)

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Re: How CMU Increased the Proportion of Women in Computer Science (2013)

#31

Post by pilom »

wrthomps wrote: post #14

I'm a CS major at CMU graduating this year and I think I can help elaborate on the "potential vs. current level" thing a bit. Things have changed somewhat since I entered the school, but the ideas are mostly the same. For my class, there were three intro-level programming courses, each a prereq for the next: introductory programming for those with no experience, introduction to data structures, and fundamentals of al…

As a CMU alumn, I have to add that part of the reason that the CS department has the 3 levels is that most majors at the school require a programming course.

I'd guess that your intro course had more non-CS majors in it than the other 2 freshmen courses which tend to have a higher proportion of CS majors.

Re: How CMU Increased the Proportion of Women in Computer Science (2013)

#32

Post by stephp »

ivanca wrote: post #17
khawkins wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CMU is a top tier school. Why should you deny a hot-shot programmer admission for someone who has a passing fancy? Judging "potential" instead of a candidate's past work and experience reeks of affirmative action.

This. When you do something in the name of political correctness (and a completely economically (and risk free) biased one - i.e. almost nobody cares about the lack of female truck drivers) you still have to measure what are you inflicting damage upon. - Is rejecting someone more fitted for this career path something good? - Are you assuming everything is a societal result and there are no biological differences betw…

Not all women are extroverts? I'm a woman and could go without seeing people for a very long time. I think this is a huge misunderstanding of what it means to have a preference for the "social." It's about the purpose behind the project, not face time.

Re: How CMU Increased the Proportion of Women in Computer Science (2013)

#33

Post by scarmig »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #29
sp332 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art and music are not unusual things to get into. But computer programming is often not presented as an option to anyone, especially women. So plenty of motivated and talented people might not even be introduced to it, or take it seriously.

Anyone with a Facebook account could have typed "learn to program" into Google rather than poking people in the farm while eating candy (or whatever people do on facebook these days). If a person chose not to take programming seriously, that's on them.

So, women who get into CMU but disproportionately haven't been exposed to programming are in that situation because they were too busy playing Farmville?

Re: How CMU Increased the Proportion of Women in Computer Science (2013)

#35

Post by Edmond »

Crito wrote: post #30
moultano wrote: post #16

I had a chance to talk to the undergraduate dean of SCS about #2. Essentially they found that "geekiness" (as he described it) had no correlation with performance in the program, but a huge correlation with gender.

I've recently been toying with the idea that the "brogrammer" trend is in reality little more than a term used to vilify male programmers who, more than anything else, share the common trait of having rejected "geek/nerd/gamer" culture or fashion. The term is male specific because female enrollment has been suppressed for the past few decades, making males the most prominent members of just about any fashion/culture…

>If we stop selecting for "geek/nerd/gamer"

I think that is the key problem. I don't know if it is just a western cultural issue but the association between social awkwardness and technical competence is the real problem. My personal experience is that if you don't fit that archetype people assume (erroneously) that you aren't technical enough.

This is a problem not just affecting women but men as well, as someone who's highly technical but doesn't come across as "nerd/geek/gamer" people universally assume I am not as competent, sometimes even when undeniable evidence is present I get treated as a magician with a bag tricks :)

Re: How CMU Increased the Proportion of Women in Computer Science (2013)

#36

Post by rayiner »

It's really wonderful to see schools like CMU lead the charge in this area, and I hope industry gives them the support encourage them to keep pushing forward. Programs like these will always be criticized as being "affirmative action" but I think in the long run, industries are better for them. Industry says we have a shortage of programmers, yet are content to maintain their focus on the sorts of people, overwhelmingly men, who started dabbling with it as teenagers. This is supremely short-sighted. It is in the interest of industry to bring people into the talent pipeline who might not have had the inclination, often for social or economic reasons, to spend their teenage years "hacking" but who demonstrate aptitude and could be excellent programmers if trained.

Re: How CMU Increased the Proportion of Women in Computer Science (2013)

#37

Post by rayiner »

gamegoblin wrote: post #7

I think that the biggest one is number 2 (giving more emphasis to CS potential rather than CS skill in the admissions process). Somehow we've made a society in which getting into computer programming at a young age is generally not something young girls are taught to want. Consequently, the huge majority of young programmers (below college age) are boys. I started programming when I was 12. The advantage this has giv…

I do think that girls at that age are less likely to be interested in solitary hobbies like programming, as opposed to more social hobbies. That said, I also think this is one of the key distinctions between hacking around as a teenager, and programming as a professional: the latter is a deeply social activity.

Re: How CMU Increased the Proportion of Women in Computer Science (2013)

#39

Post by camelite »

gamegoblin wrote: post #28
camelite wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is self-contradicting: If there's a "giant" gap between boys who start young and girls or boys who don't, then acknowledging that gap at the application stage is not preferential treatment. Ignoring it because it doesn't favour girls, on the other hand, is preferential treatment. Edited to add: The time to intervene, if it to be equitable, is around the age of 12. But getting the interest of 12 year olds…

Where is the contradiction? I was pointing out essentially what your edit suggests. Somehow we've made a society in which young boys favor programming more than girls. I wasn't saying that people who have been programming since age 12 should be on equal footing in terms of the admissions process. As I said in some comments below, I think that the non-preferential treatment is instead geared towards people who have da…

> Where is the contradiction?

You referenced, approvingly I assume, emphasizing "potential" over skill in admissions.

You'd like for it not to unfairly impact boys who've had a genuine interest since a young age. Unfortunately CMU's policy seems to be to disregard all levels of prior experience. They contrast the newer polices with the old, which gave preference to "lots of previous programming experience". (not just a little bit) They target aptitude and "non-academic strengths". (a lot or a little previous experience doesn't fit here). Finally, if you are actually giving weight to experience, explicitly stating "no prior experience required" is a funny way to go about it.

One last thing: a corollary of my edit is that an intervention that changes requirements however they need to be changed, just to get more girls in the door, is inequitable.

Re: How CMU Increased the Proportion of Women in Computer Science (2013)

#40

Post by Crito »

Edmond wrote: post #35
Crito wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've recently been toying with the idea that the "brogrammer" trend is in reality little more than a term used to vilify male programmers who, more than anything else, share the common trait of having rejected "geek/nerd/gamer" culture or fashion. The term is male specific because female enrollment has been suppressed for the past few decades, making males the most prominent members of just about any fashion/culture…

>If we stop selecting for "geek/nerd/gamer" I think that is the key problem. I don't know if it is just a western cultural issue but the association between social awkwardness and technical competence is the real problem. My personal experience is that if you don't fit that archetype people assume (erroneously) that you aren't technical enough. This is a problem not just affecting women but men as well, as someone wh…

I've seen friends get labeled "brogrammer" just because they wore polo shirts instead of t-shirts with gaming stuff printed on them, and because in university they belonged to a fraternity instead of the anime club. These people don't spend all day in the office doing kegstands, they work just as hard and just as effectively as anybody else, but they are derisively labeled "brogrammer" and the depth of their skill is routinely questioned.

Above a certain age, 30-35 or so I'd estimate, not being "nerd/geek/gamer" seems to lose it's stigma as "family man" becomes a more common occurrence (but of course with that comes age discrimination).

(I believe the tie-in to sexism is fairly complex. Selection for "nerd/gamer/programmer" probably causes a gender imbalance in the industry, but I think that genuine sexism and not just prejudice against lifestyles/fashions also plays an important role. Evening out the gender imbalance would likely have the effect of loosening prejudices against lifestyles/fashions, even if those prejudices were the cause of the gender imbalance in the first place. I believe the issues are related in a more complex manner than "one caused the other".)

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