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The Man Who Built Catan

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Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#31

Post by YokoZar »

habosa wrote: post #10

My friends and I just got into Catan and it's really great. We used to play a ton of FIFA and Madden when we were together, now it's always "who wants to settle?". It really is a great game because it can't be completely beaten like Monopoly can and there is no best strategy that we've found. I play totally differently than my friends and we all win sometimes. I also love the social aspects of trading and the robber.…

Catan got really popular when I was in college, and I noticed a distinctly different playstyle among the "normal" groups of friends I had and the ones that came from the Economics department.

A lot of people never think to do things like: - Pay the robber to rob someone else - Ask the robber what card he wants to take from you, and if it's something you're willing to give up just show him which card it is in your hand - Trade away all of a scarce resource you have, then use the monopoly card to get them back, then trade them away again - Paying someone to build roads to cut someone else off - Paying to "rent" someone's port for a turn to get a better exchange rate

We like to use a house rule that requires all trades to "clear" within a turn (ie no arguments over enforceable/conflicting trades taking place on future turns).

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#32

Post by philwelch »

mdmarra wrote: post #12
graylights wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that Catan is much less complex monopoly. Just that most people learn monopoly at a very young age so they never notice the complexity. Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration. I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Even though I don't particular care for Catan…

Monopoly only drags on for hours if you play by silly house rules like $400 for landing on Go, money for landing on Free Parking, or not requiring an auction when passing on purchasing a property. All of these common house rules artificially extend the game by either injecting cash into the game or slowing the acquisition of property. A vanilla game of 4 player monopoly should take no more than an hour.

To me the problem with Monopoly isn't just that it takes forever, but that you can get into a commanding position early and spend most of the game slowly bleeding your opponents to death one by one. Monopoly is a game to resent people over.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#33

Post by twoodfin »

mdmarra wrote: post #12
graylights wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that Catan is much less complex monopoly. Just that most people learn monopoly at a very young age so they never notice the complexity. Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration. I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Even though I don't particular care for Catan…

Monopoly only drags on for hours if you play by silly house rules like $400 for landing on Go, money for landing on Free Parking, or not requiring an auction when passing on purchasing a property. All of these common house rules artificially extend the game by either injecting cash into the game or slowing the acquisition of property. A vanilla game of 4 player monopoly should take no more than an hour.

In my experience Monopoly games played by the official rules with experienced players would drag endlessly due to trade negotiations. Typically, whenever a player was clearly in an advantageous position, the remaining players would form a loose alliance, shuffling properties and cash in an attempt to stymie the leader. The leader would fall back into the pack, a new leader would emerge, and the whole process would repeat. Every iteration would require a substantial amount of discussion, proposals and counter-proposals for an equitable but effective distribution of properties and cash amongst the "insurgents". Any thoughts on what we were doing wrong?

Catan at least has the advantage of monotonically increasing building and army points: Given enough time and even barely rational spending, a player is guaranteed to reach 10 points, no matter how alliances form and splinter.

The biggest problem we encountered in both games was the "spoiler": The player who was not in a position to win, but was in a position to determine the winner. Either you try to impose hard-to-adjudicate rules requiring "rational decisions" or you accept that a long-running game may be decided by caprice.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#34

Post by philwelch »

derefr wrote: post #15
graylights wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that Catan is much less complex monopoly. Just that most people learn monopoly at a very young age so they never notice the complexity. Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration. I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Even though I don't particular care for Catan…

> I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Well, inasmuch as it does that, it's teaching the correct economic lesson: when you allow for monopolies, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and social mobility (what a game designer would term "avoiding lame-duck scenarios") is nowhere to be found. I'd say Monopoly is actua…

Yeah, that was the original point of the game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Landlord's_Game

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#35

Post by nopassrecover »

YokoZar wrote: post #31
habosa wrote: post #10

My friends and I just got into Catan and it's really great. We used to play a ton of FIFA and Madden when we were together, now it's always "who wants to settle?". It really is a great game because it can't be completely beaten like Monopoly can and there is no best strategy that we've found. I play totally differently than my friends and we all win sometimes. I also love the social aspects of trading and the robber.…

Catan got really popular when I was in college, and I noticed a distinctly different playstyle among the "normal" groups of friends I had and the ones that came from the Economics department. A lot of people never think to do things like: - Pay the robber to rob someone else - Ask the robber what card he wants to take from you, and if it's something you're willing to give up just show him which card it is in your han…

Interestingly the "clear within a turn" rule would mean that you could only rent a port from the player who's turn it is (unless you allow all players to use their ports at any time).

I also assume by paying you mean making an undesirable trade, unless you allow gifting through another house rule.

In some games I've seen the following: Player A (current turn) wants to trade wheat for a brick through Player B's port. Player A will trade 2 wheat and a bonus resource to Player B for x arbitrary resource. On Player B's turn they move the wheat through their harbour for a brick and trade this back to Player A for their x arbitrary resource back. Player B keeps the bonus resource as payment, and Player A gets usage of Player B's harbour. This couldn't happen in one turn as only the current player can use their harbour.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#36

Post by thatswrong0 »

derefr wrote: post #15
graylights wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that Catan is much less complex monopoly. Just that most people learn monopoly at a very young age so they never notice the complexity. Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration. I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Even though I don't particular care for Catan…

> I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Well, inasmuch as it does that, it's teaching the correct economic lesson: when you allow for monopolies, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and social mobility (what a game designer would term "avoiding lame-duck scenarios") is nowhere to be found. I'd say Monopoly is actua…

That might be valid if most modern monopolies weren't the product of government intervention.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#37

Post by philwelch »

twoodfin wrote: post #33
mdmarra wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monopoly only drags on for hours if you play by silly house rules like $400 for landing on Go, money for landing on Free Parking, or not requiring an auction when passing on purchasing a property. All of these common house rules artificially extend the game by either injecting cash into the game or slowing the acquisition of property. A vanilla game of 4 player monopoly should take no more than an hour.

In my experience Monopoly games played by the official rules with experienced players would drag endlessly due to trade negotiations. Typically, whenever a player was clearly in an advantageous position, the remaining players would form a loose alliance, shuffling properties and cash in an attempt to stymie the leader. The leader would fall back into the pack, a new leader would emerge, and the whole process would re…

The spoiler just adds a level of metagame. You can cripple me early in the game by repeatedly putting the robber on my best hex, but by doing so you've made an enemy for the rest of the game.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#38

Post by philwelch »

Pxtl wrote: post #18

The great thing about Catan is how it's a wedge. It's a gateway drug into the world of modern boardgames (I don't say Eurogames because there's some fantastic Ameritrash). People who play Catan are then amicable to try out other fun great games like Ticket To Ride and Small World.

I thought the distinction between "Eurogames" and "Ameritrash" had more to do with design style than actual nationality.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#39

Post by idProQuo »

mdmarra wrote: post #28
idProQuo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who was bad at monopoly as a kid, those cash injections helped make the game feel more "fair". The vanilla rules make it really hard for a newbie to win against someone who actually knows how to play strategically. Now, that doesn't justify turning the game into a 4 hour slog, but it may help to explain why so many people use these "wimp rules".

There are definite "winning" strategies - like acquiring a monopoly on "jail row" and mortgaging all other properties to build it up as soon as possible. But does altering a game so that a child doesn't have to see the optimal moves from someone else do anything positive for anyone playing the game?

> But does altering a game so that a child doesn't have to see the optimal moves from someone else do anything positive for anyone playing the game?

It didn't, it was a bandage to cover the fact that Monopoly is not a very good kids game.

Re: The Man Who Built Catan

#40

Post by nedwin »

geddes wrote: post #4

Is Catan really Silicon Valley's golf, like the article claims? I'd love to think so but I haven't seen any deals cemented over a game of Catan. Anyone have any stories?

I'm fairly new here but yet to see a ton of Catan action. Fancy a game?
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