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The anonymity I know

chrishateswriting.com

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Re: The anonymity I know

#31
I think what both pieces miss is the behavior that asymmetric anonymity seems to encourage. The ability to lambast public figures from behind a screen of anonymity seems to bring out the abusive worst in people, and the target has nowhere to run. Conversely, communities in which everyone is anonymous seem to foster a degree of creativity and respect rarely found elsewhere. I think Altman was thinking about the former when he addressed the app, and this piece addresses the latter. But they're different kinds of anonymity.

Edit: Asymmetric, not asynchronous.

Re: The anonymity I know

#32

I think what both pieces miss is the behavior that asymmetric anonymity seems to encourage. The ability to lambast public figures from behind a screen of anonymity seems to bring out the abusive worst in people, and the target has nowhere to run. Conversely, communities in which everyone is anonymous seem to foster a degree of creativity and respect rarely found elsewhere. I think Altman was thinking about the former…

> asynchronous anonymity

Do you mean asymmetric rather than asynchronous?

Re: The anonymity I know

#33
post #8
post #3

> I strongly disagree. What I’ve observed is the opposite—that anonymity facilitates honest discourse, creates a level playing field for ideas to be heard, and enables creativity like none other. I think Chris makes a great counter-argument, however, isn't it possible that anonymity can breed both meanness and creativity? I don't mean just creatively-cruel-pranks, but that what anonymity breeds is dependent on the co…

Honest discourse means that you're able to express meanness, but it does not necessarily spawn that meanness from nothing.

I disagree. Honest discourse means you are able to express a differing point of view, even if it is very critical/harsh. Meanness would be calling someone a faggot when it is unrelated to the topic and that is never a part of real discourse.

Re: The anonymity I know

#34

I think what both pieces miss is the behavior that asymmetric anonymity seems to encourage. The ability to lambast public figures from behind a screen of anonymity seems to bring out the abusive worst in people, and the target has nowhere to run. Conversely, communities in which everyone is anonymous seem to foster a degree of creativity and respect rarely found elsewhere. I think Altman was thinking about the former…

I tend to agree, so long as you meant asymmetric anonymity instead of asynchronous anonymity

Re: The anonymity I know

#35
post #10
post #3

> I strongly disagree. What I’ve observed is the opposite—that anonymity facilitates honest discourse, creates a level playing field for ideas to be heard, and enables creativity like none other. I think Chris makes a great counter-argument, however, isn't it possible that anonymity can breed both meanness and creativity? I don't mean just creatively-cruel-pranks, but that what anonymity breeds is dependent on the co…

Yes. Healthy communities, real or virtual, self-regulate through social feedback loops. Requiring real names activates those social feedback loops in a way that is very handy from the perspective of people designing communities. If you're going to have anonymity, you need to find a workable substitute. Early BBSes were often pseudonymous, but they were also gardens carefully tended by their operators. HN's self-moder…

Scalzi considers "ugly" anyone that is outside a very small neighborhood of idea space. It's fine for his own professional blog, but it's incredibly narrow as a general principle for discussions.

Re: The anonymity I know

#36

This is a great essay, and a great argument for anonymity and what it can offer. Sam's essay went too quickly towards condemning anonymity, but it started by attacking a different kind of anonymity--that of small groups. Secret might have problems not simply because the messages are anonymous, but because they are anonymous between people who know each other and can act on that information. In 4chan participants like…

Interesting perspective. Thanks.

Re: The anonymity I know

#37

>> "What I’ve observed is the opposite—that anonymity facilitates honest discourse, creates a level playing field for ideas to be heard, and enables creativity like none other." One big counterpoint to this I can see is ask.fm. People are given total anonymity and they use it to berate and bully others (I believe it's also lead to several suicides). Anonymity can work great if the community is good. Here on HN I thin…

There are mod policies on HN that ban/regulate users. Without those, would the quality still be as good? Probably not.

Re: The anonymity I know

#38

Here's an idea: to reap the benefit of anonymity but also to discourage the trolling that comes with it how about an anonymous BBS where you pay (anonymously and in some currency that people don't particularly mind parting with -- e.g., Dogecoin) to post?

Haven't there been case studies showing that it's possible to deanonymize Bit/Dogecoin transactions? Since the blockchain records all transactions, one slip-up could lead to your identity being discovered.

Re: The anonymity I know

#39
post #19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that anonymity breeds meanness suggests that the meanness is created. I think moot's assertion that anonymity facilitates honesty suggests that what is exposed is the meanness that was within people all along.

People have everything within them: we contain multitudes. But we also become what we do, and what we surround ourselves with. Setting aside 4chan, which I don't know well, look at newspaper comments. People positively compete to be giant assholes. They practice being mean. I think there's a big difference between people having the potential for meanness within them and indulging that in a way that magnifies and shar…

> People positively compete to be giant assholes.

People compete to be giant assholes under their own names. Facebook logins with picture and all.

Re: The anonymity I know

#40
I always appreciate what moot has to say, and I think he's absolutely correct about anonymity creating a stage in which it's fine to fail publically. There's almost no judgement based on past efforts, which means that you can frequently see new ideas pop up.

This is especially true of the boards with topics, which tend to have smaller communities than the random board, allowing for more effective meme propogation. For example, a recent tweet [1] by musician Lorde ended with the words "o i am laffin" which has since become a sort of alternative to "lol" on 4chan's music board (especially when a given thread is about Lorde herself). It became a meme not because karma reinforced its popularity and not because moot or any other admin endorsed it, but because enough anonymous people thought that it was funny that they ALL want to keep posting it for no good reason.

moot mentions snapchat in the article, which I think is related in a fundamental way to what has made 4chan successful. I've had snapchat since June, and the way I use it with my friends is to share small jokes and the tiny frustrations of modern life. This is stuff that is amusing enough that I want a few people to see what I've written once, but not so funny that I think it should exist for eternity online. But it's always been more about the jokes for my friends and me than about security.

Apparently I'm not alone. When news got out about the snapchat leaks[2], many people thought that this would be a damaging blow to Snapchat. These were people who I assume don't use snapchat very frequently. To me, it never mattered that the photos leaked, because there's so much noise in the snapchats that it'd be difficult, I am thinking, to use the data maliciously. The worst thing is that the database of snapchat ids leaked, so people can spam snaps to people they don't know. But this is not a problem that is difficult to deal with.

Point is, moot is right about nobody in silicon valley really understanding the value of anonymity. While the Mr. Altman was discussing the negative face of people shedding their identity (e.g. people with bones to pick doing so anonymously in public) he didn't see the positive benefits that moot describes. Perhaps a gossip app is not the best place to see creativity blossom on the internet.

I want to relay one last anecdote from my time on 4chan:

4chan has an advice board (/adv/[3]) that is as anonymous as the rest of 4chan[4]. On this board, people ask for advice. Often it's relationship problems, even more often it's the problems of sad men who like girls but have no idea how to transition from that point to a relationship with one of them. If Mr. Altman's hypothesis that "Anonymity breads meanness"[5] were true, one would expect this board to be full of people just trolling depressed neets. While that does happen from time to time, more often than not it's full of people genuinely trying to help these people that they don't know and have never met. They expect nothing in return, but they are a fully anonymous community that just tries to help people who feel they don't have anywhere better to ask for help.

Maybe anonymity isn't so bad.

[1] https://twitter.com/lordemusic/status/430186358930292736

[2] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/46-million-snapchat-usernames-ph...

[3] http://boards.4chan.org/adv/ (probably NSFW)

[4] there are actually different levels of anonymity on 4chan, but, for the most part, everybody is more or less completely anonymous with each post.

[5] http://blog.samaltman.com/anonymity

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