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US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

theguardian.com

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Re: US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

#31

Post by davidw »

Retric wrote: post #28
benpbenp wrote: post #13

Wealth is meant for people. All of a company's wealth is ultimately destined for somebody's pocket. Why can't we just tax it when it gets there, and abolish corporate taxes? Naturally I'd assume in that case that dividends would be taxed at the same rate as earned income, and that both would have to rise somewhat at the higher brackets to cover the lost income. But given that is the case, I honestly don't see any dow…

I would assume you would also like to tax foreign investors. Corporate taxes allow for this thus lowering your and every other US citizens taxes. Which is why there a 'good idea' and not just a meaningless exercise.

That's a good point. On the other hand, 0 corporate taxes would lead to more investment by foreigners, and some of that investment would make its way into the local economy.

As to which effect is stronger, I have no idea!

Re: US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

#32

Post by jotm »

don_draper wrote: post #30
benpbenp wrote: post #13

Wealth is meant for people. All of a company's wealth is ultimately destined for somebody's pocket. Why can't we just tax it when it gets there, and abolish corporate taxes? Naturally I'd assume in that case that dividends would be taxed at the same rate as earned income, and that both would have to rise somewhat at the higher brackets to cover the lost income. But given that is the case, I honestly don't see any dow…

Because much of what the government does it solely for corporations. Take the agency US AID. They are not a charity. I had lunch with a high level official and asked him what he did and he said mostly it was to help drum up business abroad for US corporations. They should pay for this service. I could go on about the DoD...

no sheet. Of course, they do it to increase the number of business opportunities for US (and all other) companies. More people who play the game means more workers or buyers, means the economic show goes on...

Re: US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

#33

Post by timje1 »

anon1385 wrote: post #21
alexbilbie wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused by your statement - a right-leaning Government is attempting to collect more taxes from multinationals who have huge sales in a country and pay little tax and yet you're claiming that they also consider tax collection some form of evil socialism?

The Conservatives are right leaning from a European perspective and compared to most of the UK governments since the war. From an American perspective they are more akin to the Democrats: they support gay marriage, support legal abortion, don't support reintroducing the death penalty, support public health care (to some extent), generally support public education, do at least claim to accept that environmental issues…

This is because the US Democratic party could be considered center-right by European standards, with the Republicans heading into extreme-right.

If a party in the UK hinted at dismantling public health care (the NHS) out loud, they'd be lynched (either in the polls or the streets, whichever was more convenient).

Re: US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

#34

Post by mindcrime »

alan_cx wrote: post #4
nodata wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain your comment a little bit? From the way I understand it, this is a way to get large companies to pay the same amount of tax as smaller companies.

To me it reads like the usual right wing rhetoric, and that any tax collection is some form of evil socialism. Not quite sure how these people expect their flag waving military, for example, to be funded without the big corporation paying their fair share, but there you go. Never understood why many Americans don't see paying tax as the ultimate act of patriotism, paying for the country they claim to love. They love…

To me it reads like the usual right wing rhetoric, and that any tax collection is some form of evil socialism. Not quite sure how these people expect their flag waving military, for example, to be funded without the big corporation paying their fair share, but there you go.

Bunk. Being anti-tax has nothing to do with being "right wing" at all. In fact, the entire term "right wing" is 100% meaningless in modern terms.

Plenty of us who oppose taxation ALSO oppose our empire building overseas military operations, and aggressive foreign policy, and want the military rolled back to only what is required for defense of the USA. I for one want the US out of the "world police" role.

Just cutting a huge chunk out of the military budget would be a great start on reducing government spending and decreasing the tax burden.

Never understood why many Americans don't see paying tax as the ultimate act of patriotism, paying for the country they claim to love.

Our country and our government are not the same thing. And Americans have a long history of having issues with excessive taxation by the government.

Re: US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

#35

Post by vinceguidry »

netcan wrote: post #20

Since this became such a public debate issue in Europe, I've actually more or less landed on the idea that maybe corporate taxes (taxing profits) are a lost battle. The only way to really combat it is for different countries to collude and perhaps sanction tax havens. Even then, I doubt they will be able to raise much tax. Modern tax systems are diverse by design: sales tax/VAT. Excise/sin taxes, income taxes, CGT, e…

Except if you don't tax profits, you're forced to tax consumption instead, forcing consumers to bear a larger than fair share of the tax burden.

It's really hard to properly tax corporations because they have the resources and the motivation to really fight back. But we shouldn't stop trying.

Re: US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

#36

Post by Eye_of_Mordor »

lmm wrote: post #22
Eye_of_Mordor wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any point in taxing companies at all - they provide jobs for tax payers.

Taxing their profits encourages them to spend any spare cash hiring more tax payers rather than sitting on it.

Corporations pay out taxed dividends from their profits.

Re: US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

#37

Post by Eye_of_Mordor »

dalke wrote: post #27
Eye_of_Mordor wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any point in taxing companies at all - they provide jobs for tax payers.

Obviously providing jobs for tax payers isn't unique to companies. I can pay for a nanny, chauffeur, and private cook even if I don't have a company. Since your logic is "X provides jobs so X shouldn't be taxed" then I shouldn't have to be taxed if I have any household staff, no? That logic makes no sense. (If it makes sense to you, please elaborate. How many employees and how many FTEs does one need before this spec…

I think you are angry with corporations 'getting away with it', but you can view them as an enabler of tax:

- taxes from their employees

- taxes from their dividends

What if there were no corporation tax - how would revenues be affected?

Re: US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

#38

Post by lmm »

Eye_of_Mordor wrote: post #36
lmm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxing their profits encourages them to spend any spare cash hiring more tax payers rather than sitting on it.

Corporations pay out taxed dividends from their profits.

Taxed at a much lower rate than ordinary people's income though. (And more to the point the kind of person who gets money from dividends is less likely to spend it on tax-generating economic activity like buying food)

Re: US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

#39

Post by amirmc »

gaius wrote: post #29
Claudus wrote: post #12

Personally, I'd rather that Google keep as much of their money as possible and continue to spend it as they see fit. I believe that society benefits far more from a company like Google having and spending the money than any federal government.

Google is here in the UK, but why? Well there is the educated workforce to hire, there is a stable business environment, there is infrastructure that works most of the time etc. Now they could go and set up somewhere there really is no tax to be paid, Somalia maybe, but how long would those "global business geniuses" last there? Not long. What would happen to a Google Bus in downtown Mogadishu? Google and companies l…

> "Now they could go and set up somewhere there really is no tax to be paid ..."

This is pretty much what they do, with legal entities in different jurisdictions. Then they can move money around such that the 'profit' is always made in a low-tax environment. For example, I always found it amusing that the invoices for my Amazon purchases had anything to do with Luxembourg (a country with If anyone would like to read more about Tax Havens (aka Secrecy Jurisdictions) I thoroughly recommend the book Treasure Islands by Nicholas Shaxson [1]. (Disclosure: that's an affiliate link for my college's library).

[1] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Treasure-Islands-Havens-Stole-World/...

Re: US tech firms make eleventh-hour attempt to halt tax avoidance reforms

#40

Post by ihsw »

netcan wrote: post #20

Since this became such a public debate issue in Europe, I've actually more or less landed on the idea that maybe corporate taxes (taxing profits) are a lost battle. The only way to really combat it is for different countries to collude and perhaps sanction tax havens. Even then, I doubt they will be able to raise much tax. Modern tax systems are diverse by design: sales tax/VAT. Excise/sin taxes, income taxes, CGT, e…

> The only way to really combat it is for different countries to collude and perhaps sanction tax havens.

Sounds like textbook prisoner's dilemma -- if they betray each-other then they both lose, but there's still a chance that they could betray their opponent without being betrayed themselves.

It seems to me that international law is riddled with subtleties where the general rule is "cheat effectively" rather than "don't cheat."

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