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On Paul Graham and Duck Dynasty

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Re: On Paul Graham and Duck Dynasty

#31

Post by ericd »

mtrimpe wrote: post #27
ericd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't fall off because of some skittishness on YC's part about taking a stance on these things or w/e. It falls off because HN is designed to throw off anything that is more inflammatory than interesting to read. I believe that this is for the sake of community preservation. This is going to fall off because it's going to be a comment section full of people misunderstanding things and shouting at each other, not…

No; it's going to fall off the front page because 10% of readers were irked by the story. That is taking a stance on how to approach discussions on sensitive topics and is exactly what I was talking about. What would happen if that weren't the case is pure speculation; because for all we know a common consensus would quickly emerge if these discussions would be allowed to run their course.

No, it's a feature of the software designed to avoid flame wars on the front page.

And from my time on the internet, I can tell you that maybe everyone who is still around at the end of the discussion will be on the same page, but it's not going to be nearly everyone that started, and along the way, a lot of people will have developed negative feelings towards each other.

Re: On Paul Graham and Duck Dynasty

#33

Post by mtrimpe »

ericd wrote: post #31
mtrimpe wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No; it's going to fall off the front page because 10% of readers were irked by the story. That is taking a stance on how to approach discussions on sensitive topics and is exactly what I was talking about. What would happen if that weren't the case is pure speculation; because for all we know a common consensus would quickly emerge if these discussions would be allowed to run their course.

No, it's a feature of the software designed to avoid flame wars on the front page. And from my time on the internet, I can tell you that maybe everyone who is still around at the end of the discussion will be on the same page, but it's not going to be nearly everyone that started, and along the way, a lot of people will have developed negative feelings towards each other.

Except that flame war is code for 'heated discussion' and it's a conscious choice by YCombinator not to let heated discussions, whether positive or negative take place.

There are numerous ways to deal with the issue of flame wars, from human moderation to Reddit-style collapsing of threads.

My point is that YCombinator chose the 'drop discussions at first sign of controversy' path because it aligns best with their corporate interest.

Re: On Paul Graham and Duck Dynasty

#34

Post by csallen »

smadge wrote: post #28
csallen wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said woman cannot be in technology because they aren't interested in computers from a young age. No, he never said that. He said that there are fewer women in tech, not that "women cannot be" in tech. > But rather than seeking why women are excluded from technology even as children, he just blames women for not being interested in hacking. He never did this either. Find me one quote where he blamed women for the…

Ok. I'll drop the feigned outrage and state my point objectively, without indicting PG. Women aren't in technology because gender norms enforce at a young age that technology is not for girls. The industry perpetuates this norm by being dominated by men who do not make an effort to change the culture to be less of a "boys club." Women who do join technology have their qualifications and contributions second guessed,…

Many thanks -- this is a MUCH better starting point for having a constructive conversation. I could type an essay in response, but I have to be on a plane soon, so I'll save it til later.

But to generalize, I think it's unrealistic to expect investors et al to shoulder this entire burden themselves.

Re: On Paul Graham and Duck Dynasty

#35

Post by borski »

smadge wrote: post #15
borski wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely afraid of stating opinions about women in tech, almost no matter what they are. Being a white male, I have a lot of fear of being completely ripped apart in TechCrunch or ValleyWag for stating my opinions or making suggestions, because I'm never sure if I'm totally PC or not. It sucks, because I want to help somehow, but I don't want to be misunderstood and have my name be raked through the coals either…

There is a pretty easy solution to your problem: get informed. Your opinion is worthless if you don't know what you are talking about enough to not infuriate people who do.

That's incredibly myopic. You have no idea how informed I am or am not. My point is not that I'm uninformed; my point is that often anything I say gets misconstrued into something I didn't mean, and then torn apart. So I avoid it, because that scares me.

I'd like to discuss it, without judgment, and come to a way I can help. The process of getting there is hard when it's so easy to jump the gun and assume that I, as a white male, am definitionally likely to be discriminatory. That occurs a lot.

Re: On Paul Graham and Duck Dynasty

#36

Post by tzs »

> He has said in the past that people with “strong” accents can’t be good CEOs

No, he said that people whose accents make it hard for others to understand them will likely have a hard time.

Re: On Paul Graham and Duck Dynasty

#37

Post by ericd »

mtrimpe wrote: post #33
ericd wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's a feature of the software designed to avoid flame wars on the front page. And from my time on the internet, I can tell you that maybe everyone who is still around at the end of the discussion will be on the same page, but it's not going to be nearly everyone that started, and along the way, a lot of people will have developed negative feelings towards each other.

Except that flame war is code for 'heated discussion' and it's a conscious choice by YCombinator not to let heated discussions, whether positive or negative take place. There are numerous ways to deal with the issue of flame wars, from human moderation to Reddit-style collapsing of threads. My point is that YCombinator chose the 'drop discussions at first sign of controversy' path because it aligns best with their co…

It has nothing to do with YC "corporate interest" (YC is about as far from that kind of thinking as you can get). It has everything to do with keeping this place a place for calm intellectual discussion rather than debate between sides with deeply entrenched beliefs that are unlikely to change. A lot of online communities devolve into a constant state of that, and it ends up driving away people who want to discuss intellectual things.

PG stresses over how to design the software for this place such that its community doesn't fall into the common traps that online communities usually do. That's not what most people are here for, and in the end, a minority would spoil this for the majority.

Re: On Paul Graham and Duck Dynasty

#38

Post by ericd »

dragonwriter wrote: post #29
bobosha wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this "model minority" had to work for it, hard-work, perseverance and grit. It's not like, a group of elites decided one fine day "OK, today we anoint Asians"

> Yes, but this "model minority" had to work for it, hard-work, perseverance and grit. It's not like, a group of elites decided one fine day "OK, today we anoint Asians" The comparative difference is closer to the latter than the former, actually, though neither is complete and the reality is more complex: the difference in racial stereotypes is not mostly due to real differences in the groups to whom various racial…

That's quite a theory you've constructed there.

I've got a much simpler one: getting to the US from their (generally much poorer home country) was a brutal selection game for many people of those races, and they come from cultures that emphasize education as the primary means of getting ahead in life. The ones that made it are naturally going to be the most motivated, educated, wealthy, and/or otherwise lucky people, on average (there are always going to be exceptions). I'm frankly in awe of what the people whose stories I've heard have accomplished from where they started.

The children of those people would have two parents of above-average motivation and belief in education coaching and driving them from a young age.

Viewed in that light, of course they're going to do well in school and be overrepresented in higher education. That's been their explicit, overriding goal, and they've had very motivated coaches helping them along.

Of course these aren't universal things, but they're common enough to have caused a stereotype to form, no convoluted conspiracy of elites scheming to manipulate society necessary.

Re: On Paul Graham and Duck Dynasty

#39

Post by bobosha »

ericd wrote: post #38
dragonwriter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, but this "model minority" had to work for it, hard-work, perseverance and grit. It's not like, a group of elites decided one fine day "OK, today we anoint Asians" The comparative difference is closer to the latter than the former, actually, though neither is complete and the reality is more complex: the difference in racial stereotypes is not mostly due to real differences in the groups to whom various racial…

That's quite a theory you've constructed there. I've got a much simpler one: getting to the US from their (generally much poorer home country) was a brutal selection game for many people of those races, and they come from cultures that emphasize education as the primary means of getting ahead in life. The ones that made it are naturally going to be the most motivated, educated, wealthy, and/or otherwise lucky people,…

And that begs the question, if someone from China or India who comes here (as in many cases) with a few hundred $ and starts up a successful business, why can't someone who's born and brought up here and afforded all privileges, does not? My guess: motivation, ( the desire to work hard and succeed and not wallow in a sea of self-pity).

BTW I think that arguments also applies to the rabble who whine and moan about "foreign workers" taking "American jobs". Sure there are cases of abuse of the H1 and other visas, but on balance it has largely benefited the tech community.

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